Attachment A 1.24.24 Formal Council Meeting Handout_Tristahn Schaub.pdf
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Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association 4340 E. Indian School Road, Suite 21-293, Phoenix, AZ 85018 January 23, 2023 City of Phoenix Mayor and City Council Members 200 W. Washington Street Phoenix, Arizona 85003 Re: ACMNA Petition to City Council for Board of Adjustment Training Reform Dear Mayor and City Council Members: The Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association formally petitions the Phoenix City Council to introduce New Board of Adjustment Member Training and Annual Mandatory Refresher training for existing members on Board of Adjustment Policy and Procedures with the details listed below. One year ago, a Maricopa County Superior Court Lawsuit involving ACMNA, The City of Phoenix and The Camelback Church of Christ was dismissed. In our settlement discussions, Phoenix Assistant City Attorney Daniel Inglese stated that the deposition of Jonathan Ammon unearthed significant concerns regarding the need for proper policy and procedural training. At that time, he was working directly with the Planning and Zoning department to implement changes. No changes were made. ACMNA has been told several times by Councilman Kevin Robinson’s office that staff has responded to these requests and training is being provided. No changes have been made and no training has occured. As of today, new members to your Board of Adjustment Wallace Graham and Michelle Dodds have not received any formal training and have requested formal training of Planning and Development. During a deposition of Jonathan Ammon on 9/9/22 he stated he had only received training once in 2018 and nothing else in the past 4 years. After admitting to wrongdoing, Ammon was asked if he felt there were ways the city could improve its support of him in the role as a Board of Adjustment member, Ammon replied “YES”, “Refreshers of rules to follow, clarifications on what is and is not permitted.” These statements and requests are coming from three current Board of Adjustment members and the city fails to supply them the training needed to do their jobs. ACMNA requests the following 1 – Stop all BOA Actions and Decisions until immediate mandatory training on Policies and Procedures for their role as Board of Adjustment Members is completed. 2 – Institute a formal on-boarding training program for new members which teaches the Policies and Procedures for the role and assigns a BOA staff mentor for the first 6 months. 3 – Institute Mandatory Annual Refresher Training for all existing Board Members and make it an open meeting, in compliance with state statutes, and open to the public. 4 – Decisions made by the Board must address Section 307 of the Zoning ordinance which includes the 4-Tests for a Variance and 2-Factors for Use Permit criteria and these decisions must be done so in proper procedural form. 5 – When overturning a ZHO’s decision, the member presenting the motion must clearly state why (based on Sec 307 criteria) the ZHO decided incorrectly. Thank you for your immediate attention to this matter. Sincerely, Tristahn Schaub VP, ACMNA 4340 E Indian School Rd #21-293 Phoenix, AZ 85018 www.acmna.org Attachment A Arcadia Osborn Neighborhood Assn. PO Box 97661 Phoenix, AZ 85060 23 January 2024 Mayor Gallego, Vice Mayor Stark and City Council members City of Phoenix 200 W. Washington, 11th floor Phoenix, AZ 85003 RE: Petition to City Council for Board of Adjustment Training Reform Mayor, Vice Mayor and Council members: Arcadia Osborn Neighborhood Association (AONA) agrees with and supports Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association’s formal petition of Phoenix City Council to introduce Board of Adjustment new member training and annual mandatory refresher training for current members on Board of Adjustment Policy and Procedures with the details listed in ACMNA’s letter to Council. The Board of Adjustment is an important and vital arm of city government. Because the board acts in a quasi-judicial capacity within legal parameters, it is of paramount importance to educate and train its members. We also believe that by conducting the annual refresher training in an open meeting setting, the City of Phoenix would continue to provide transparency to its processes with its citizens. The next step beyond the Board of Adjustment for Phoenix citizens is Maricopa County Superior Court. Citizens should not have to bear the costly burden of going to court to challenge or defend actions by the board. Education and training will minimize the frequency of those challenges. Thank you for reviewing and acting positively on ACMNA’s petition. Respectfully submitted, /s/ Neal Haddad President, Arcadia Osborn Neighborhood Association ·1· · · · · · · · · · ·ARIZONA SUPERIOR COURT ·2· · · · · · · · · · · · ·MARICOPA COUNTY ·3· · ·ARCADIA CAMELBACK MOUNTAIN· · · ·) · · · ·NEIGHBORHOOD ASSOCIATION, an· · ·) ·4· · ·Arizona non-profit· · · · · · · ·) · · · ·corporation,· · · · · · · · · · ·) ·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )· No. CV2022-004359 · · · · · ·Plaintiff,· · · · · · · · · ·) ·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) · · · ·v.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·) ·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) · · · ·CITY OF PHOENIX, an Arizona· · · ) ·8· · ·municipal corporation; and· · · ·) · · · ·CITY OF PHOENIX BOARD OF· · · · ·) ·9· · ·ADJUSTMENT, an official body· · ·) · · · ·of the City of Phoenix,· · · · · ) 10· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) · · · · · ·Defendants.· · · · · · · · · ) 11· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) · · · ·BOOTZ & DUKE SIGN CO., an· · · · ) 12· · ·Arizona corporation; CAMELBACK· ·) · · · ·CHURCH OF CHRIST, an Arizona· · ·) 13· · ·non-profit corporation,· · · · · ) · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) 14· · · · ·Real Parties in Interest.· · ) · · · ·_________________________________) 15 16 17 · · · · · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF JONATHAN AMMON 18 · · · · · · · · · · · · · Phoenix, Arizona 19 · · · · · · · · · · · · ·September 9, 2022 20 21 22 23 · · · ·Prepared by: 24· · ·CINDY MAHONEY, RPR, RMR · · · ·Certified Court Reporter 25· · ·Certificate No. 50680 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com ·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X ·2· ·WITNESS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE ·3· · JONATHAN AMMON ·4· · · · ·EXAMINATION BY MR. DEWULF· · · · · · · · · · 4 ·5· · · · ·EXAMINATION BY MR. INGLESE· · · · · · · · · ·65 ·6· · · · ·FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. DEWULF · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 72 ·7 ·8 ·9 10 · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXHIBITS MARKED 11 · · ·EXHIBITS· · · · · · · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · ·PAGE 12 13· · Exhibit 1· · ·City of Phoenix Application No:· · ·4 · · · · · · · · · · ZA-454-21 14 · · · Exhibit 2· · ·Rules of Procedure of the Board of 4 15· · · · · · · · · Adjustment, City of Phoenix, · · · · · · · · · · Arizona 16 · · · Exhibit 3· · ·Board of Adjustment Training,· · · ·11 17· · · · · · · · · August 30, 2018 18· · Exhibit 4· · ·Zone Adjustment hearing, October· · 23 · · · · · · · · · · 14, 2021, document 19 · · · Exhibit 5· · ·February 3, 2022, Reporter's· · · · 29 20· · · · · · · · · Transcript of Audio-recorded · · · · · · · · · · Proceedings 21 · · · Exhibit 6· · ·City of Phoenix Planning and· · · · 58 22· · · · · · · · · Development Services document 23 24 25 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 2 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com ·1· · · · · · · · ·THE DEPOSITION OF JONATHAN AMMON commenced at ·2· ·9:19 a.m. on September 9, 2022, at the law offices of ·3· ·Coppersmith Brockelman PLC, 2800 North Central Avenue, ·4· ·Suite 1900, Phoenix, Arizona, before Cindy Mahoney, RPR, ·5· ·RMR, Arizona Certified Court Reporter No. 50680. ·6 ·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·*· · *· · * ·8· ·APPEARANCES: ·9· · ·For the Plaintiff: · · · · · ·COPPERSMITH BROCKELMAN PLC 10· · · · ·By: John E. DeWulf, Esq. · · · · · · · ·2800 North Central Avenue 11· · · · · · ·Suite 1900 · · · · · · · ·Phoenix, Arizona 85004 12· · · · · · ·602-381-5475 · · · · · · · ·Jdewulf@cblawyers.com 13 14· · ·For the Defendants: · · · · · ·OFFICE OF THE PHOENIX CITY ATTORNEY 15· · · · ·CRIS MEYER, CITY ATTORNEY · · · · · ·By: Daniel Inglese, Esq. 16· · · · · · ·Assistant City Attorney · · · · · · · ·200 West Washington Street 17· · · · · · ·Suite 1300 · · · · · · · ·Phoenix, Arizona 85003 18· · · · · · ·602-262-6761 · · · · · · · ·Daniel.inglese@phoenix.gov 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 3 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · · · · ·(The documents were as marked as Exhibits 1 and 2 ·2· ·for identification.) ·3 ·4· · · · · · · · · · · · JONATHAN AMMON, ·5· · · · · ·the witness herein, being first duly sworn, ·6· · · · · · ·was examined and testified as follows: ·7 ·8· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION ·9· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 10· · · ·Q.· ·Would you please state your name for the record. 11· · · ·A.· ·My name is Jonathan Ammon. 12· · · ·Q.· ·Mr. Ammon, have you been deposed before? 13· · · ·A.· ·No, sir. 14· · · ·Q.· ·So let me go through with you -- and maybe your 15· ·counsel has spoken to you about this as well.· If we get 16· ·some ground rules in place and some understandings, it will 17· ·cause us to be more efficient. 18· · · · · · · · ·So I represent the Arcadia Camelback Mountain 19· ·Neighborhood Association.· I'm going to be referring to 20· ·them as the Arcadia homeowners.· Is that okay for you? 21· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 22· · · ·Q.· ·And the deposition today arises out of a public 23· ·use -- a public use application by Bootz & Duke Sign 24· ·Company.· Do you recall that? 25· · · ·A.· ·Yes. Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:19:34 09:19:44 09:20:01 09:20:23 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 4 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·Q.· ·Now, if -- so you're under oath to tell the truth. ·2· ·You understand that; right? ·3· · · ·A.· ·I do. ·4· · · ·Q.· ·And so my goal is to ask you questions regarding ·5· ·the subject matter of that.· And I want my questions to be ·6· ·clear and understood.· So if you don't understand my ·7· ·questions, will you let me know? ·8· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·9· · · ·Q.· ·And if you answer the question I ask you, I'm 10· ·going to assume you understood the question.· Is that fair? 11· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 12· · · ·Q.· ·I generally go about an hour and then take a 13· ·break.· But if there's any point in time where you need to 14· ·take a break, will you let us know? 15· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 16· · · ·Q.· ·And we'll stop.· Is that fair? 17· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 18· · · ·Q.· ·We need to extend the courtesy to one another to 19· ·allow the other to complete speaking before the other 20· ·speaks, because it's very difficult for the court reporter 21· ·to take down two people speaking at the same time.· Is that 22· ·understood? 23· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 24· · · ·Q.· ·And your answers will need to be audible so she 25· ·can type them and verbal so that it can be understood in Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:20:32 09:20:47 09:21:01 09:21:11 09:21:22 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 5 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·the record.· So uh-huh, huh-uh, those kinds of things don't ·2· ·work well.· I'll try to remember if that happens. ·3· · · · · · · · ·I don't think that's going to happen with ·4· ·you.· And if there are times when the question confuses ·5· ·you, please ask me.· I'll rephrase it.· Okay? ·6· · · ·A.· ·I will. ·7· · · ·Q.· ·Did you do anything to prepare for today's ·8· ·deposition? ·9· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 10· · · ·Q.· ·What did you do? 11· · · ·A.· ·I spoke -- read through the minutes and spoke with 12· ·my attorney. 13· · · ·Q.· ·And your attorney is Mr. Inglese? 14· · · ·A.· ·That's correct.· Yes, sir. 15· · · ·Q.· ·Did you review anything else other than the 16· ·minutes? 17· · · ·A.· ·No. 18· · · ·Q.· ·How long did you meet? 19· · · ·A.· ·45 minutes. 20· · · ·Q.· ·I'm going to go through some background 21· ·information, if I could. 22· · · · · · · · ·Where do you currently reside? 23· · · ·A.· ·17613 North 56th Place. 24· · · ·Q.· ·Is that Phoenix? 25· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir.· It has a Scottsdale area, but the ZIP Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:21:42 09:21:49 09:22:12 09:22:27 09:22:46 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 6 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·code is in Phoenix, 85254. ·2· · · ·Q.· ·Now, I've looked at your background, but I may not ·3· ·precisely know all the details, so I'm going to ask you ·4· ·some questions just for background purposes. ·5· · · · · · · · ·My understanding is that you got a BA from ·6· ·Trinity in 2004? ·7· · · ·A.· ·I did.· Yes, sir. ·8· · · ·Q.· ·Then you also got advanced degrees from Washington ·9· ·University; correct? 10· · · ·A.· ·In St. Louis.· Yes, sir. 11· · · ·Q.· ·You got a master's in architecture and a master's 12· ·in construction management? 13· · · ·A.· ·That's correct, sir. 14· · · ·Q.· ·You attended Washington University from 2007 to 15· ·2011? 16· · · ·A.· ·Western University? 17· · · ·Q.· ·No.· Washington University. 18· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 19· · · ·Q.· ·Then upon graduation, did you work at Gilbane or 20· ·Gilbane construction? 21· · · ·A.· ·Gilbane Building Company. 22· · · ·Q.· ·And the description I saw was virtual construction 23· ·engineer.· Was that the title? 24· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 25· · · ·Q.· ·What did that entail? Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:23:07 09:23:17 09:23:28 09:23:40 09:23:49 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 7 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·A.· ·The coordination of multiple architectural, ·2· ·structural, mechanical, electrical, plumbing, fire ·3· ·protection systems for buildings over $25 million in ·4· ·construction cost in Arizona and Massachusetts. ·5· · · ·Q.· ·And you left that entity in 2015? ·6· · · ·A.· ·I did. ·7· · · ·Q.· ·And you became a cofounder of Devco Development ·8· ·Collaborative? ·9· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 10· · · ·Q.· ·And who are you a cofounder with? 11· · · ·A.· ·A gentleman by the name of Adam, last name 12· ·Eggebrecht, E-g-g-e-b-r-e-c-h-t.· Very minimal work. 13· ·Nothing ever really became of that group. 14· · · ·Q.· ·It lasted about a year or so? 15· · · ·A.· ·About that, yes, sir. 16· · · ·Q.· ·What was its business? 17· · · ·A.· ·To identify and possibly acquire land to develop 18· ·buildings. 19· · · ·Q.· ·And then you joined Sundt Construction? 20· · · ·A.· ·Correct, sir. 21· · · ·Q.· ·As an engineer? 22· · · ·A.· ·As a similar job to what I did at Gilbane. 23· · · ·Q.· ·Construction management? 24· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 25· · · ·Q.· ·You were there from 2016 to 2018? Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:24:11 09:24:21 09:24:40 09:24:51 09:24:58 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 8 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·A.· ·I was. ·2· · · ·Q.· ·Now, it appears that you founded Jammon Studios. ·3· ·Am I pronouncing that correctly? ·4· · · ·A.· ·Jammon Studios.· Close enough.· Yes, sir. ·5· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you founded that in 2018? ·6· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. ·7· · · ·Q.· ·And you were with that entity as an architect and ·8· ·founder for how long? ·9· · · ·A.· ·Still to this day. 10· · · ·Q.· ·So starting in 2018 and still there? 11· · · ·A.· ·Uh-huh. 12· · · ·Q.· ·How would you describe Jammon's business? 13· · · ·A.· ·Architectural practice. 14· · · ·Q.· ·Designing what? 15· · · ·A.· ·Residential, commercial, ground-up, and tenant 16· ·improvement projects. 17· · · ·Q.· ·In your work for any of these entities, have you 18· ·had to appear before either a zoning administrator or the 19· ·Board of Adjustment? 20· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 21· · · ·Q.· ·Let's just limit it to Jammon Studios.· How many 22· ·times have you appeared either before the zoning adjustment 23· ·administrator or the Board of Adjustment? 24· · · ·A.· ·Immediate recollection is twice. 25· · · ·Q.· ·Do you remember what it involved? Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:25:13 09:25:27 09:25:40 09:26:16 09:26:32 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 9 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·A.· ·A variance for a height of a concrete masonry wall ·2· ·to go from six feet to seven feet, along with the reduction ·3· ·in open space of a property from five percent to three ·4· ·percent.· That was one. ·5· · · · · · · · ·And if I may please have a moment, I can give ·6· ·you the information on the other. ·7· · · · · · · · ·The other variance was for the increased ·8· ·square footage of a residential property to allow for, I ·9· ·believe, a two or a five percent increase in lot coverage. 10· · · ·Q.· ·How long have you been on the Board of Adjustment? 11· · · ·A.· ·I believe since the very beginning of 2018, the 12· ·last part of 2017.· I believe it was August or September of 13· ·2017. 14· · · ·Q.· ·And that's a four-year term; right? 15· · · ·A.· ·No, sir.· I do not believe it is. 16· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So you still serve? 17· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 18· · · ·Q.· ·Do you believe that you -- that you'll be serving 19· ·for some time in the future? 20· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 21· · · ·Q.· ·That's a voluntary position; right? 22· · · ·A.· ·I was appointed, and I accepted. 23· · · ·Q.· ·Who appointed you? 24· · · ·A.· ·Thelda Williams.· Councilmember -- Councilwoman 25· ·Thelda Williams at the time. Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:26:55 09:27:34 09:27:53 09:28:06 09:28:31 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 10 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·Q.· ·Was it a position you sought out with her? ·2· · · ·A.· ·No, sir. ·3· · · ·Q.· ·Total surprise? ·4· · · ·A.· ·One that was -- yes. ·5· · · ·Q.· ·Why did you say yes? ·6· · · ·A.· ·I was flattered to have an opportunity to serve ·7· ·the community and sit on this board. ·8· · · ·Q.· ·So we're here regarding a use permit for a digital ·9· ·sign at 5225 East Camelback Road for the Camelback Church 10· ·of Christ.· You understand that; right? 11· · · ·A.· ·I do, yes, sir. 12· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· I've shown you Exhibit 1.· And is that one 13· ·of the documents relating to that permit -- use permit 14· ·application? 15· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 16· · · ·Q.· ·In connection with serving on the Board of 17· ·Adjustment, Mr. Ammon, what kind of education or training 18· ·did you receive? 19· · · ·A.· ·I believe it was a few hours of training with the 20· ·zoning administrator, Tricia Gomes, alongside legal 21· ·counsel, Paul Li, City of Phoenix, as a legal 22· ·orientation -- an orientation to the legal proceedings and 23· ·the processes of the work that we will do. 24· · · · · · · · ·(The document was marked as Exhibit 3 for 25· ·identification.) Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:28:45 09:29:23 09:29:43 09:30:18 09:30:59 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 11 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·BY MR. DEWULF: ·2· · · ·Q.· ·Let me ask you to look at Exhibit 2. ·3· · · ·A.· ·Uh-huh. ·4· · · ·Q.· ·These are the rules of procedure of the Board of ·5· ·Adjustment, City of Phoenix, Arizona.· You're familiar with ·6· ·these rules? ·7· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir, I am. ·8· · · ·Q.· ·As part of your training and education provided to ·9· ·you by the city, they would have discussed with you these 10· ·rules? 11· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 12· · · ·Q.· ·The rules would govern how the board goes about 13· ·doing its business? 14· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 15· · · ·Q.· ·The training that you received from Tricia Gomes 16· ·and legal counsel, was it -- did it consist, among other 17· ·things, of PowerPoint presentations or written materials 18· ·provided to you? 19· · · ·A.· ·I would like to better understand the question. 20· · · ·Q.· ·Okay. 21· · · ·A.· ·May I ask you a question?· Or do you ask -- 22· · · ·Q.· ·Let me ask a better question.· And if I still 23· ·fail, then we can go back and forth. 24· · · · · · · · ·So in terms of what was provided to you in 25· ·connection with the training or education, do you recall? Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:31:17 09:31:29 09:31:42 09:32:04 09:32:16 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 12 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·2· · · ·Q.· ·What were you provided? ·3· · · ·A.· ·The explanation of the type of materials that ·4· ·could be presented to us by appellant opposition or the ·5· ·people that will be presenting to the Board of Adjustments, ·6· ·understanding that there would be oral presentations by ·7· ·people, along with visual documents that could be in the ·8· ·form of a PowerPoint presentation, a PDF or a video.· It ·9· ·was explained to us that that's the information we should 10· ·anticipate to receive during our board process. 11· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So my question was really going at a 12· ·different angle. 13· · · · · · · · ·In the form that was provided to you by the 14· ·city to educate you or train you to serve in the role on 15· ·the Board of Adjustment, do you remember what form that 16· ·took? 17· · · ·A.· ·I do. 18· · · ·Q.· ·What do you remember? 19· · · ·A.· ·A binder in which we walked through the types of 20· ·presentations that we would see, documentation that would 21· ·be provided to us, and examples of. 22· · · ·Q.· ·So let's look at Exhibit 2.· And if you could go 23· ·to the second page, Roman numeral IV.· It talks about the 24· ·information to be provided, evidence, legal memoranda, and 25· ·other statements to be provided by the parties to the Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:32:31 09:32:49 09:33:08 09:33:19 09:33:47 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 13 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·proceeding to you. ·2· · · · · · · · ·Now, at the -- it's at the bottom of that ·3· ·second page.· It's called evidence.· Do you see it? ·4· · · ·A.· ·Yes.· Sorry. ·5· · · ·Q.· ·That's all right. ·6· · · ·A.· ·Okay. ·7· · · ·Q.· ·So this talks about the -- you talked a moment ·8· ·ago, Mr. Ammon, about what the city staff anticipated with ·9· ·you as to the kinds of things you would be provided. 10· · · · · · · · ·And the Roman numeral IV talks about the 11· ·evidence.· You understood the evidence to include legal 12· ·memoranda, written statements, other evidence; true? 13· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 14· · · ·Q.· ·And you understood that the evidence that would be 15· ·provided to you by the parties to the proceeding would need 16· ·to be provided ten days in advance of the scheduled 17· ·hearing; correct? 18· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 19· · · ·Q.· ·And did you also understand that the decision to 20· ·be made by the board would be limited to the evidence 21· ·provided to you by the applicants and the opposition to the 22· ·applicant? 23· · · ·A.· ·I did. 24· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Let me take you to the next page.· Roman 25· ·numeral V, Hearings and decisions.· A little over halfway Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:33:59 09:34:14 09:34:27 09:34:41 09:35:01 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 14 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·down that page. ·2· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. ·3· · · ·Q.· ·There's a hearing appeal by applicant.· Now, in ·4· ·this instance, Bootz & Duke Sign Company was appealing the ·5· ·decision by the zoning adjustment administrator; right?· Or ·6· ·hearing officer; right? ·7· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. ·8· · · ·Q.· ·And so you would have, based on your understanding ·9· ·of how these proceedings were to work, anticipated that 10· ·whatever evidence the board was to consider would be 11· ·provided to you either by Bootz & Duke, in this case the 12· ·appellant, or by the Arcadia homeowners who were opposing 13· ·the application? 14· · · ·A.· ·That is correct. 15· · · ·Q.· ·Let's look at Exhibit 3.· Did this document -- or 16· ·does this document look familiar to you as a form of a 17· ·presentation that would have been provided to you by the 18· ·city in terms of training you and other board members? 19· · · ·A.· ·It does. 20· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And the date of this document is August 30, 21· ·2018. 22· · · · · · · · ·For the record, my client obtained this 23· ·through a public records request.· And I believe it to be 24· ·an authentic document and record from the City of Phoenix. 25· ·It's dated August 30, 2018, which I think would be in the Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:35:20 09:35:38 09:35:56 09:36:20 09:36:42 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 15 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·time frame when you were a member of the Board of ·2· ·Adjustment.· Would that be fair? ·3· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. ·4· · · ·Q.· ·So is it likely that the presentation embodied in ·5· ·Exhibit 3 would be an accurate representation of what you ·6· ·were being told, educated about, trained to do as a member ·7· ·of the Board of Adjustment? ·8· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·9· · · ·Q.· ·If we go to the -- these pages aren't numbered, so 10· ·let's go to the fourth page of the document. 11· · · · · · · · ·So the top, it says, Legislative versus 12· ·quasi-judicial.· Do you see that? 13· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 14· · · ·Q.· ·And you understood that you, as a board member, 15· ·might be engaged in your formal or official duties both in 16· ·dealing with legislative issues and dealing with 17· ·quasi-judicial issues; correct? 18· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 19· · · ·Q.· ·And the hearing that we're here today about would 20· ·be a quasi-judicial proceeding; correct? 21· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 22· · · ·Q.· ·What do you understand that to mean, something 23· ·being quasi-judicial? 24· · · ·A.· ·Something that was similar to a judgment and a 25· ·ruling that would be enforced or carried out by the group Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:36:58 09:37:20 09:37:39 09:37:53 09:38:08 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 16 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·that would receive that ruling. ·2· · · ·Q.· ·Like a legal proceeding? ·3· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. ·4· · · ·Q.· ·And you and the other members of the board would ·5· ·be serving as decision-makers or judges for that ·6· ·proceeding? ·7· · · ·A.· ·That is correct.· Yes, sir. ·8· · · ·Q.· ·If you look at the next page, Mr. Ammon, under the ·9· ·column quasi-judicial, it says that ex parte communications 10· ·are not allowed.· Do you see that? 11· · · ·A.· ·I do. 12· · · ·Q.· ·You understood that that was something that was 13· ·prohibited; that is, ex parte communications with 14· ·participants in a hearing before you? 15· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 16· · · ·Q.· ·What do you understand ex parte to mean? 17· · · ·A.· ·To be -- not to be looking and using information 18· ·outside of what has been provided. 19· · · ·Q.· ·If it were to relate to a communication between 20· ·you and an individual, would ex parte capture this idea 21· ·that the communication would be about the subject matter of 22· ·a proceeding but outside the actual proceeding? 23· · · ·A.· ·Most respectfully, I don't fully understand the 24· ·question.· I apologize. 25· · · ·Q.· ·That's all right. Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:38:27 09:38:43 09:38:56 09:39:22 09:39:42 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 17 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · · · · · · ·We, as lawyers, run into this concept, but ·2· ·it's probably foreign to non-lawyers.· But frequently ex ·3· ·parte means kind of outside the proceedings, outside the ·4· ·formal legal proceedings. ·5· · · · · · · · ·So did you understand that you were not to ·6· ·engage in communications outside of the formal proceedings ·7· ·with folks who were involved in the proceedings? ·8· · · ·A.· ·Absolutely.· Yes. ·9· · · ·Q.· ·Now, going farther down on that page, the heading, 10· ·Evidence and testimony, I'll read the bullet point. 11· · · · · · · · ·[Reading] Decisions are based only on the 12· ·testimony and evidence presented at the hearing. 13· · · · · · · · ·Did you understand that to be the case? 14· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 15· · · ·Q.· ·And that's what you had been taught by legal 16· ·counsel and Ms. Gomes? 17· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 18· · · ·Q.· ·If we could go a few pages back.· I think it's 19· ·three pages back.· There's a heading, Use permit criteria. 20· ·Do you see that? 21· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 22· · · ·Q.· ·All right.· Take a moment and look at that. 23· · · · · · · · ·Is this generally what you understand to be 24· ·the criteria that the Board of Adjustment was to apply in 25· ·the case where someone is seeking a use permit? Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:39:59 09:40:16 09:40:26 09:40:51 09:41:06 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 18 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·2· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you knew that this was the criteria ·3· ·that would be applied in this instance where Bootz & Duke, ·4· ·as an appellant, were challenging the zoning ·5· ·administrator's decision? ·6· · · ·A.· ·I did, yes. ·7· · · ·Q.· ·Do you have to take any refresher courses or any ·8· ·updating of training or educating as it relates to your ·9· ·responsibility as a Board of Adjustment member? 10· · · ·A.· ·At this time, no. 11· · · ·Q.· ·So would the only training you have had relative 12· ·to serving in that role be what training you got in 2018? 13· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 14· · · ·Q.· ·And do you think that the training you got is 15· ·embodied in Exhibit 3? 16· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 17· · · ·Q.· ·Do you think there was anything else beyond 18· ·Exhibit 3 that would have been shared with you either by 19· ·Ms. Gomes or counsel? 20· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· I would advise the witness not 21· ·to reveal any attorney-client privileged communications in 22· ·answering that question. 23· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Would you ask -- please ask the 24· ·question one more time? 25· ·/// Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:41:21 09:41:46 09:42:00 09:42:08 09:42:18 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 19 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·BY MR. DEWULF: ·2· · · ·Q.· ·Sure. ·3· · · · · · · · ·In connection with the training or education ·4· ·you received from the city; that is, legal counsel and ·5· ·Ms. Gomes, in connection with your role on the Board of ·6· ·Adjustment, do you think that there were any other ·7· ·materials or information provided to you outside of what's ·8· ·in Exhibit 3? ·9· · · ·A.· ·No. 10· · · ·Q.· ·At one point in the record -- and when you say 11· ·minutes, you're talking about the formal written record of 12· ·what occurred at the proceeding? 13· · · ·A.· ·That is correct.· Yes, sir. 14· · · ·Q.· ·We're going to look at that in a moment. 15· · · · · · · · ·You indicate, and the statements you made on 16· ·the record is that you were very familiar with that section 17· ·of Camelback Road.· Would that be a true statement? 18· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 19· · · ·Q.· ·There were -- also, are you familiar with the 20· ·Arcadia neighborhood both south and north of Camelback 21· ·Road? 22· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 23· · · ·Q.· ·And how do you have that familiarity? 24· · · ·A.· ·Moved to Phoenix when I was ten, started driving 25· ·when I was 16.· I grew up in the north central area. Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:42:29 09:42:41 09:43:00 09:43:17 09:43:30 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 20 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·Friends of mine lived in the Arcadia area.· To this day, ·2· ·colleagues and friends live in the Arcadia area.· And I ·3· ·commute up and down Camelback. ·4· · · · · · · · ·And over the course of years, you get quite ·5· ·exposed to both the residential and the commercial area ·6· ·specifically.· And there's a number of discussions I've had ·7· ·with clients and potential clients around that area as ·8· ·well. ·9· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Are you familiar with where Hopi primary 10· ·school is? 11· · · ·A.· ·Not the specific street address and the 12· ·intersection, but yes, I have driven by it a number of 13· ·times. 14· · · ·Q.· ·There were some references in the record, 15· ·specifically by Bootz & Duke, to the signage that appears 16· ·at Hopi Elementary School.· Did you review that signage 17· ·before the formal hearing? 18· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir.· I did. 19· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did you have any impressions based on your 20· ·review of that sign? 21· · · ·A.· ·I did. 22· · · ·Q.· ·What were the impression? 23· · · ·A.· ·That that sign for Hopi is a larger, higher 24· ·profile sign than the one that was part of the appellant's 25· ·presentation and proposal. Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:43:49 09:44:07 09:44:18 09:44:32 09:44:46 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 21 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·Q.· ·So you know this, and this became an issue in the ·2· ·public record.· When we talk about high profile and low ·3· ·profile, it can be kind of an ambiguous term, so let me try ·4· ·to explore that with you. ·5· · · ·A.· ·Sure. ·6· · · ·Q.· ·Did you look at the size of what would be called ·7· ·the digital display on that sign? ·8· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·9· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And did you compare the size of that 10· ·digital display on the Hopi sign to what was being 11· ·presented as an application by the church, the Camelback 12· ·Church of Christ? 13· · · ·A.· ·I did. 14· · · ·Q.· ·What were your conclusions based on that? 15· · · ·A.· ·That one was -- one was that Hopi was larger and 16· ·taller than the other and that -- perhaps I didn't answer 17· ·the question as well as I could have.· Excuse me. 18· · · · · · · · ·My conclusion was that the Hopi sign in total 19· ·was larger and of a, quote/unquote, higher profile than 20· ·what was being presented at the Camelback sign, not 21· ·specific to the digital sign and its relationship in its 22· ·dimensions and measurement. 23· · · ·Q.· ·I understand, I think.· Let me make sure. 24· · · · · · · · ·You're saying you really didn't compare the 25· ·size of the digital display at Hopi to what was being Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:45:00 09:45:12 09:45:27 09:45:50 09:46:08 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 22 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·presented by Bootz & Duke in the hearing? ·2· · · ·A.· ·That is correct. ·3· · · ·Q.· ·So when you talk about profile, you're really ·4· ·talking about the monument that existed in which the ·5· ·digital display was housed? ·6· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir.· That is correct. ·7· · · ·Q.· ·And so that monument at Hopi is taller than what ·8· ·was contemplated by the application? ·9· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 10· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you think that a signage for a public 11· ·entity like a primary school is comparable to what a church 12· ·would be seeking from the Board of Adjustment? 13· · · ·A.· ·Depending on the size of the church and size of 14· ·the school, I do believe that they can be comparable.· And 15· ·by size of church, I mean number of congregants, attendees. 16· · · ·Q.· ·Does the amount of street-front footage matter in 17· ·your analysis? 18· · · ·A.· ·If it is in line with the laws and the codes -- 19· ·zoning codes of the City of Phoenix, then I would follow 20· ·what the City of Phoenix allows. 21· · · · · · · · ·(The document was marked as Exhibit 4 for 22· ·identification.) 23· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 24· · · ·Q.· ·Showing you Exhibit 4 to your deposition, 25· ·Mr. Ammon. Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:46:24 09:46:39 09:47:13 09:47:35 09:48:05 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 23 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. ·2· · · ·Q.· ·This is the zoning adjustment hearing officer's ·3· ·decision.· You've seen it before? ·4· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. ·5· · · ·Q.· ·And did you review this document before the public ·6· ·hearing on the application which is embodied in Exhibit 1? ·7· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir.· I did. ·8· · · ·Q.· ·And you understood that the zoning adjustment ·9· ·hearing officer had denied the application by Bootz & Duke? 10· · · ·A.· ·I did. 11· · · ·Q.· ·You understood, among other things, that part of 12· ·the reason for the denial was -- well, in fact, we can look 13· ·at it together. 14· · · · · · · · ·If you look on the first page, paragraph 3, 15· ·it reads, Granting of the use permits may have a negative 16· ·impact on the surrounding area and will not contribute in a 17· ·measurable way the downgrading of property values. 18· · · · · · · · ·Then the next sentence, Although similar, 19· ·generally smaller electronic message displays have been 20· ·approved at churches in less character-driven parts of 21· ·Phoenix.· The proposed sign is not compatible at this 22· ·location within the Arizona Camelback Special District 23· ·(ACSD) adopted in 1999. 24· · · · · · · · ·Do you agree or disagree with that statement? 25· · · ·A.· ·I disagree with that statement. Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:48:15 09:48:37 09:48:53 09:49:09 09:49:27 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 24 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·Q.· ·Why? ·2· · · ·A.· ·Because I do not believe it has a negative impact ·3· ·on the surrounding area, because I do not believe that the ·4· ·amount of light emitted exceeds that of ambient conditions ·5· ·and therefore qualifies for the granting of the use permit. ·6· · · ·Q.· ·Are you aware of any other digital signs or signs ·7· ·that produce the amount of light that this sign would ·8· ·between 44th Street and 68th Street on Camelback Road -- ·9· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Foundation. 10· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 11· · · ·Q.· ·-- if you know? 12· · · ·A.· ·I do not believe there are any. 13· · · ·Q.· ·The next -- let's go to the next page. 14· · · · · · · · ·Go down about nine lines.· There's a sentence 15· ·that begins, All signage. 16· · · ·A.· ·This is off of that first paragraph? 17· · · ·Q.· ·This is on the first paragraph. 18· · · ·A.· ·Uh-huh. 19· · · ·Q.· ·Are you there? 20· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 21· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· It reads, All signage should be "low 22· ·profile and in keeping with the character of the Arcadia 23· ·area."· At eight feet high by ten feet wide, the sign 24· ·cannot be considered "low profile."· It is larger than 25· ·other EMD signs approved for churches recently at zoning Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:49:45 09:50:07 09:50:29 09:50:38 09:50:57 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 25 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·adjustment hearings.· Its location, electronic message ·2· ·display, and gray and white design (plus message display) ·3· ·are not inconsistent with area character. ·4· · · · · · · · ·Did I read that correctly? ·5· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. ·6· · · ·Q.· ·Do you agree or disagree with that statement? ·7· · · ·A.· ·I disagree. ·8· · · ·Q.· ·Why? ·9· · · ·A.· ·The design review that occurred at the City of 10· ·Phoenix with this project in order for it to get its permit 11· ·beforehand was reviewed by the city and moved forward and 12· ·approved.· And I felt as though that the design was in 13· ·keeping with what was reviewed by the city. 14· · · ·Q.· ·But your determination on a use permit included 15· ·this concept of whether it was consistent with the 16· ·character of the area; correct? 17· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 18· · · ·Q.· ·That really goes beyond what the sign permit was 19· ·about; right? 20· · · ·A.· ·It does. 21· · · ·Q.· ·So you understood that was -- part of your 22· ·responsibility was to evaluate how this fits or does not 23· ·fit within the character of the Arcadia area? 24· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 25· · · ·Q.· ·Do you understand what the term extra record Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:51:13 09:51:23 09:51:42 09:51:50 09:52:00 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 26 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·means? ·2· · · ·A.· ·At this time, no. ·3· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· You've never heard the term extra record ·4· ·relating to, in terms of a legal proceeding or a hearing ·5· ·such as the one we're here about today, where evidence or ·6· ·information is provided that's outside of the record ·7· ·developed by the parties?· You never heard that term? ·8· · · ·A.· ·I have heard that term, yes. ·9· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you understand the term extra record as 10· ·it relates to these proceedings we're here about today? 11· · · ·A.· ·I'm still a little confused, respectfully. 12· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· What are you confused about? 13· · · ·A.· ·Whether or not this is -- if extra record has to 14· ·do with additional information that was provided by either 15· ·party or if extra record is something that someone on the 16· ·board looks up or drives by or looks at Google Earth. I 17· ·don't understand extra record in terms of this 18· ·conversation. 19· · · ·Q.· ·All right.· So we looked a moment ago at 20· ·Exhibit 2, which is the rules of procedure of the Board of 21· ·Adjustment, which provides that the parties are to provide 22· ·ten days in advance the evidence that they intend to use at 23· ·the hearing; right? 24· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 25· · · ·Q.· ·Would -- in your view, evidence that's first Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:52:24 09:52:43 09:53:01 09:53:22 09:53:38 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 27 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·provided at the hearing that is not ten days before the ·2· ·hearing, would that be extra record? ·3· · · ·A.· ·I believe that to be extra record. ·4· · · ·Q.· ·When we use the word evidence, we're talking about ·5· ·factual information that would be presented to and reviewed ·6· ·by the board in its determining whether or not to grant the ·7· ·relief requested? ·8· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·9· · · ·Q.· ·When the zoning adjustment hearing officer talked 10· ·about high profile versus low profile as it relates to 11· ·signage, in your definition, how would you distinguish high 12· ·profile from low profile? 13· · · ·A.· ·A size of monument and height comparison of two 14· ·separate signs. 15· · · ·Q.· ·Not the size or luminescence or glare of the 16· ·digital portion of that sign? 17· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 18· · · ·Q.· ·Did you say yes? 19· · · ·A.· ·Would you please ask that one more time? 20· · · ·Q.· ·Let me back up, because I just want to be clear 21· ·about this. 22· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 23· · · ·Q.· ·When you're talking about high profile versus low 24· ·profile, in your view, that's a function of how big the 25· ·monument of the sign is, the size of the overall structure; Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:53:58 09:54:35 09:54:56 09:55:16 09:55:30 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 28 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·correct? ·2· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·3· · · ·Q.· ·High profile or low profile, in your view, does ·4· ·not relate to the amount of luminescence or glow of a ·5· ·digital sign or the size of that digital sign? ·6· · · ·A.· ·Although I could be wrong, that is correct. ·7· · · ·Q.· ·Why do you say you could be wrong? ·8· · · ·A.· ·There could be a definition -- standard definition ·9· ·of industry signage companies that qualify what constitutes 10· ·a high-profile versus a low-profile sign that could be more 11· ·than monument size and might very well include 12· ·luminescence, other numbers. 13· · · ·Q.· ·So I'm going to show you the reporter's transcript 14· ·of the Board of Adjustment hearing. 15· · · · · · · · ·(The document was marked as Exhibit 5 for 16· ·identification.) 17· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 18· · · ·Q.· ·So let me ask you, Mr. Ammon, before the hearing 19· ·on -- let me back up. 20· · · · · · · · ·Exhibit Number 5 is the reporter's 21· ·transcript.· Earlier in your testimony you talked about 22· ·having reviewed the minutes of the meeting.· And this is 23· ·what you were referring to; right? 24· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 25· · · ·Q.· ·Exhibit 5. Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:55:46 09:56:09 09:56:26 09:56:51 09:57:04 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 29 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · · · · · · ·And you understood that this was a ·2· ·transcription of what occurred at the hearing? ·3· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·4· · · ·Q.· ·Why did you review Exhibit 5 before you came to ·5· ·your deposition? ·6· · · ·A.· ·Seemed like a prudent direction to familiarize ·7· ·myself with what was communicated during the time of this ·8· ·hearing. ·9· · · ·Q.· ·Let me ask you to go to page 24.· This begins 10· ·line 10 on page 24.· Are you there? 11· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 12· · · ·Q.· ·Board Member Ammon -- that's you -- says, For the 13· ·gentleman that just spoke, everybody, thank you again for 14· ·all your presentations and points. 15· · · · · · · · ·Do you recall that when you spoke, both 16· ·parties; that is, Bootz & Duke and the Arcadia homeowners, 17· ·had both made their presentations? 18· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 19· · · ·Q.· ·And by that, the process is one where the 20· ·appellant, in this case Bootz & Duke, is provided a certain 21· ·amount of time to present its case; and then the opposition 22· ·in this case, the Arcadia homeowners, had an opportunity to 23· ·present their view; and then Bootz & Duke then has a 24· ·rebuttal opportunity; correct? 25· · · ·A.· ·Yes. Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:57:23 09:57:56 09:58:17 09:58:33 09:58:50 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 30 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·Q.· ·Do you know that after those presentations are ·2· ·made, the microphones are muted; that is, those folks can ·3· ·no longer speak unless given the opportunity by the city? ·4· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·5· · · ·Q.· ·So do you know that after the Arcadia homeowners ·6· ·association's representative, Tristahn Schaub, did his ·7· ·presentation for ten minutes, then the city muted his ·8· ·microphone? ·9· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 10· · · ·Q.· ·And page 24, you say, Everybody, thank you again 11· ·for all of your presentations and points.· I'm looking at 12· ·the Bootz & Duke -- Bootz & Duke website, and I know it's 13· ·not -- I can't bring it up on this page or anything like 14· ·that, but I'm looking at some of your other church signs 15· ·and things like that.· It looks like the St. Luke's 16· ·Catholic Church, that one was done.· That was a digital 17· ·sign that was a little smaller.· It certainly would have 18· ·been nice to see some church signs up in comparison. 19· · · · · · · · ·Did I read that correctly? 20· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 21· · · ·Q.· ·And so you're reflecting at this point in the 22· ·hearing that you are actually doing a search of the Bootz & 23· ·Duke website? 24· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 25· · · ·Q.· ·Let me ask you: Before the hearing on February 3, Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 09:59:02 09:59:20 09:59:43 10:00:02 10:00:11 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 31 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·2022, for which these minutes were generated, did you ·2· ·review any other information that was extra record or ·3· ·outside of the record presented by the parties? ·4· · · ·A.· ·No, I did not. ·5· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did you look at the Bootz & Duke website ·6· ·before the hearing? ·7· · · ·A.· ·No, I did not. ·8· · · ·Q.· ·And when you looked at the Bootz & Duke website -- ·9· ·let me rephrase that. 10· · · · · · · · ·Why did you look at the Bootz & Duke website? 11· · · ·A.· ·Because I was looking -- let's see, how do I say 12· ·this? 13· · · · · · · · ·As I have had stated on the record, it 14· ·certainly would have been nice to see some church signs up 15· ·in comparison.· To best -- to come to the most prudent 16· ·decision, I wanted to see other signs completed by -- other 17· ·church signs that are digital, as I did not see them in 18· ·either presentations. 19· · · ·Q.· ·Did you know by doing so you would be favoring the 20· ·Bootz & Duke efforts to get the sign approved? 21· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form.· You can 22· ·answer. 23· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I did not know. 24· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 25· · · ·Q.· ·But in your judgment, you had determined that Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:00:36 10:00:49 10:01:17 10:02:01 10:02:09 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 32 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·Bootz & Duke had fallen short of fully informing you as to ·2· ·what a church sign would look like that was the subject of ·3· ·the application? ·4· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. ·5· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I did.· And I also did not see ·6· ·that in opposition's view -- in opposition's presentation ·7· ·either. ·8· ·BY MR. DEWULF: ·9· · · ·Q.· ·Do you recall that the opposition, Arcadia 10· ·homeowners, did provide some examples of signage that were 11· ·created by Bootz & Duke? 12· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 13· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· You're just saying you didn't see something 14· ·for a church?· Is that the distinction you're drawing? 15· · · ·A.· ·Of a similar size, a similar height sign of a 16· ·similar low-profile sign, per my understanding of the 17· ·definition of low profile. 18· · · ·Q.· ·So you're at that point supplementing the 19· ·information provided to the board by the Bootz & Duke 20· ·party? 21· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. 22· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I was, yes. 23· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 24· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Because you felt that the record that they 25· ·were creating by their presentation was inadequate for the Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:02:23 10:02:34 10:02:45 10:03:05 10:03:11 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 33 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·board to make a decision? ·2· · · ·A.· ·Even though I would have come to the same ·3· ·conclusion based off of the information that was provided ·4· ·to us, I did want to see additional information. ·5· · · ·Q.· ·Because you still had questions as to what this ·6· ·sign would actually look like in this location on Camelback ·7· ·Road? ·8· · · ·A.· ·I wanted to get a better understanding of the ·9· ·scale and scope of what the image would look like in real 10· ·life as opposed to a computer rendering that was seen on a 11· ·screen as a drawing in comparison to a real example in an 12· ·image or a drive-by or something like that. 13· · · ·Q.· ·Because you thought that that would help inform or 14· ·educate you in making your decision regarding the 15· ·application? 16· · · ·A.· ·Supplementally.· But as I said very candidly, I 17· ·do -- I would still have come to the same conclusion. 18· · · ·Q.· ·You say that now, frankly, but you felt the need 19· ·to do this notwithstanding the fact that you knew that that 20· ·was outside of the record; right? 21· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. 22· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. 23· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 24· · · ·Q.· ·So you say you would have made the same decision, 25· ·yet you felt compelled to do this extra research as related Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:03:30 10:03:49 10:04:12 10:04:30 10:04:44 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 34 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·to the decision so you would feel comfortable about the ·2· ·decision; fair? ·3· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·4· · · ·Q.· ·But the information that you found -- let me back ·5· ·up. ·6· · · · · · · · ·When you went on the website, Mr. Ammon, did ·7· ·the digital sign for the church appear immediately upon ·8· ·getting to the website or did you have to search for ·9· ·something like the St. Luke's sign? 10· · · ·A.· ·Click church signs, up came images.· It did not 11· ·appear immediately. 12· · · ·Q.· ·So you think it was church signs versus digital 13· ·display signs? 14· · · ·A.· ·From what I remember, I had to search. 15· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you remember how -- how many times you 16· ·had to click in order to get from first arriving at the 17· ·Bootz & Duke website to the point of locating the specific 18· ·example of the St. Luke's sign? 19· · · ·A.· ·To the best of my knowledge, two clicks. 20· · · ·Q.· ·You felt that this information was valuable to 21· ·your determination as to whether to grant the use permit or 22· ·not; true? 23· · · ·A.· ·No, sir.· Not particularly. 24· · · ·Q.· ·I keep coming back -- why go through the exercise 25· ·if you don't think it's helpful? Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:04:57 10:05:11 10:05:23 10:05:45 10:06:06 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 35 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·A.· ·Much of my job and my responsibilities is to be ·2· ·detail-oriented and, out of curiosity, to get an ·3· ·understanding of what the sign could look like in its ·4· ·visual real form in the real world. ·5· · · ·Q.· ·So being detail-oriented, you felt that this was ·6· ·detail that was important in you making your decision; that ·7· ·is, the detail from the example of a sign on Bootz & Duke's ·8· ·website? ·9· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 10· · · ·Q.· ·All right.· Now, if you need to refer back to 11· ·Exhibit 3, you understood that the decisions by the Board 12· ·of Adjustment were, specifically by rule and procedure, to 13· ·be based only on the testimony and the evidence presented 14· ·at the hearing; correct? 15· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. 16· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That's correct. 17· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 18· · · ·Q.· ·And did you understand by going onto the Bootz & 19· ·Duke website and introducing that information about the 20· ·sign, you were bringing in evidence outside of the 21· ·testimony and evidence presented at the hearing? 22· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. 23· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· As a lapse in judgment and 24· ·error, yes. 25· ·/// Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:06:35 10:06:53 10:07:09 10:07:19 10:07:36 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 36 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·BY MR. DEWULF: ·2· · · ·Q.· ·Sitting here today, do you think you violated the ·3· ·rules and procedures of the City of Phoenix as it relates ·4· ·to the process and procedure for the Board of Adjustment? ·5· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. ·6· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· By the strict letter of the ·7· ·law, yes. ·8· ·BY MR. DEWULF: ·9· · · ·Q.· ·So the information that you did locate that you 10· ·thought was helpful to you; that is, an actual digital sign 11· ·being utilized by a church, did you share that information 12· ·with the other board members? 13· · · ·A.· ·No, I did not. 14· · · ·Q.· ·You didn't do it even after the hearing? 15· · · ·A.· ·No. 16· · · ·Q.· ·And you didn't share it with the Arcadia 17· ·homeowners; right? 18· · · ·A.· ·Correct. 19· · · ·Q.· ·There's a point in the minutes or -- or the 20· ·transcript of the proceedings where you conclude -- the 21· ·part that I read is on page 24, and you can go back and 22· ·look at it. 23· · · · · · · · ·Lines 10 through 20, you say, It looks like 24· ·the St. Luke's Catholic Church, that one was done.· That 25· ·was a digital sign that was a little smaller. Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:07:47 10:08:00 10:08:13 10:08:25 10:08:45 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 37 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · · · · · · ·Then you go on. ·2· · · · · · · · ·[Reading] It certainly would have been nice ·3· ·to see some church signs up in comparison. ·4· · · · · · · · ·Let me break that down into two parts.· The ·5· ·first part is, you concluded on your own review of this ·6· ·website information that no one else in the room was seeing ·7· ·that the St. Luke's digital sign was smaller than the one ·8· ·that was the subject of the application by the Camelback ·9· ·church; correct? 10· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 11· · · ·Q.· ·Were you able to discern that just by looking at 12· ·the website? 13· · · ·A.· ·I believe I was. 14· · · ·Q.· ·But wasn't it just a picture? 15· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 16· · · ·Q.· ·Did it have the dimensions of the sign? 17· · · ·A.· ·No, sir. 18· · · ·Q.· ·Did it have the surrounding area so you can check 19· ·proportion or dimensions vis-a-vis the surrounding area? 20· · · ·A.· ·From what I recall with the sidewalk, plants in 21· ·front, some detail from what I recall, my estimate is that 22· ·I was able to get an idea of the size of the scale, being 23· ·that much of what I do on a day-to-day basis is individual 24· ·feel. 25· · · ·Q.· ·So you saw a visual image on the Bootz & Duke Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:09:00 10:09:18 10:09:30 10:09:41 10:10:04 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 38 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·website of a church sign, and based on your sense of scale, ·2· ·concluded that it was smaller than the applicant's or ·3· ·the -- the church that was -- I'm sorry.· Let me rephrase ·4· ·that. ·5· · · · · · · · ·You concluded, upon your visual review of the ·6· ·sign, the picture of the St. Luke's sign contained on the ·7· ·Bootz & Duke website, that looking at the picture, it was ·8· ·smaller than the sign that was the subject of the hearing? ·9· · · ·A.· ·Yes.· And even though the -- there was not a 10· ·question noted in my record, Mr. Gibson's response had 11· ·communicated that height of the board as well. 12· · · ·Q.· ·So let me just ask you: The introduction of this 13· ·evidence that was outside of the record, do you think that 14· ·was fair to the Arcadia homeowners? 15· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. 16· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· No, I do not. 17· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 18· · · ·Q.· ·And when it becomes a situation where you're 19· ·bringing in new evidence, then the parties ought to have an 20· ·opportunity to respond to that, don't you think? 21· · · ·A.· ·Absolutely.· Yes, sir. 22· · · ·Q.· ·But the Arcadia homeowners didn't have an 23· ·opportunity to respond to this new evidence, did it? 24· · · ·A.· ·Regrettably, no.· They did not. 25· · · ·Q.· ·But Bootz & Duke did have an opportunity because Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:10:24 10:10:53 10:11:18 10:11:33 10:11:45 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 39 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·their mic was still on, and then you allowed them to talk ·2· ·specifically about this extra-record evidence; right? ·3· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. ·4· · · ·Q.· ·And I don't recall the gentleman's name, but the ·5· ·individual from Bootz & Duke who was a presenter -- I think ·6· ·it's Mr. Gibson -- talked about the fact that he was ·7· ·familiar with this sign; right? ·8· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·9· · · ·Q.· ·But we don't today even know whether he was 10· ·telling the truth or whether the two signs were similar or 11· ·not, do we? 12· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. 13· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· As he was under oath, I would 14· ·hope that he would be speaking the truth. 15· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 16· · · ·Q.· ·We both know that people being under oath don't 17· ·always tell the truth; right, unfortunately? 18· · · ·A.· ·Unfortunately. 19· · · ·Q.· ·So not only were you introducing extra-record 20· ·evidence that Arcadia homeowners didn't get an opportunity 21· ·to review or respond to, but you also were giving the sign 22· ·company an opportunity to talk extemporaneously about that 23· ·extra-record evidence; right? 24· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 25· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:11:59 10:12:14 10:12:24 10:12:35 10:12:48 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 40 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·BY MR. DEWULF: ·2· · · ·Q.· ·So the information that you gathered from the ·3· ·Bootz & Duke website, was that ever shared with the other ·4· ·members of the board? ·5· · · ·A.· ·No, it was not. ·6· · · ·Q.· ·Could you have -- if you talked to Ms. Gomes or ·7· ·the people in the room, could you have taken a break or ·8· ·taken an opportunity to share that information so that it ·9· ·formally became a part of the record so the parties could 10· ·address it? 11· · · ·A.· ·No, I do not believe we could have. 12· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So let's go to -- let me ask a question, 13· ·because you just mentioned Mr. Gibson's comments a moment 14· ·ago. 15· · · · · · · · ·When you raised this issue of St. Luke's sign 16· ·being similar but smaller on the record, you recall that 17· ·testimony; right? 18· · · ·A.· ·Yes, I do. 19· · · ·Q.· ·He -- Mr. Gibson shared with you that he knew that 20· ·sign and then talked about it; correct? 21· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 22· · · ·Q.· ·Have you ever independently, up to today, ever 23· ·determined whether the signs were similar in size? 24· · · ·A.· ·No. 25· · · ·Q.· ·You know that the sign, the St. Luke's Catholic Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:12:59 10:13:16 10:13:40 10:13:55 10:14:13 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 41 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·Church sign was located on 7th Avenue?· Do you know that? ·2· · · ·A.· ·South of the 101, yes, sir. ·3· · · ·Q.· ·Have you ever driven by or looked at that? ·4· · · ·A.· ·Yes, I have. ·5· · · ·Q.· ·Did you do that after the hearing or before the ·6· ·hearing? ·7· · · ·A.· ·After the hearing. ·8· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· To the extent that context, character of ·9· ·neighborhood, those kinds of things were issues before the 10· ·board -- and we know that they were; right? 11· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 12· · · ·Q.· ·Giving Arcadia homeowners and the other board 13· ·members an opportunity to review the St. Luke's Catholic 14· ·Church environment, street, traffic, surrounding area would 15· ·have been helpful in the deliberation process; fair? 16· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 17· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So let's look at page 30 of the Exhibit 5. 18· · · · · · · · ·I'm kind of summarizing here, but in these 19· ·proceedings involving the sign at Camelback Church of 20· ·Christ, the appellant, Bootz & Duke Sign Company, gave its 21· ·presentation after it had, prior to the hearing, provided 22· ·all the evidence and its written materials to the city; 23· ·right? 24· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 25· · · ·Q.· ·And then the Arcadia homeowners had also presented Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:14:24 10:14:39 10:14:58 10:15:37 10:15:53 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 42 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·their evidence and their arguments on the record, and then ·2· ·Bootz & Duke then provided rebuttal presentations; correct? ·3· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·4· · · ·Q.· ·And then you engaged -- after all the parties had ·5· ·closed their presentations, then you engaged in what was ·6· ·basically a dialogue between you and Mr. Gibson from Bootz ·7· ·& Duke about this sign at St. Luke's Catholic; correct? ·8· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·9· · · ·Q.· ·And then based on all that information -- and I -- 10· ·let me step back a minute. 11· · · · · · · · ·You work with these board members all the 12· ·time in the context of handling these kinds of matters 13· ·where you're addressing hearings by applicants, community 14· ·citizens, organizations; fair? 15· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 16· · · ·Q.· ·So you've gained a level of trust and respect 17· ·between the board members; fair? 18· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. 19· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. 20· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 21· · · ·Q.· ·And would you agree with me that you would have 22· ·credibility with the rest of the board if you are 23· ·presenting information based on your own work? 24· · · ·A.· ·Not particularly, no, sir. 25· · · ·Q.· ·Do you think you would not be credible with the Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:16:19 10:16:50 10:17:06 10:17:19 10:17:32 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 43 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·other board members? ·2· · · ·A.· ·If it's outside the rules of the -- of what we're ·3· ·allowed to do at the Board of Adjustment in terms of ·4· ·gathering additional information outside of what's been ·5· ·provided to us, and I'm making an error, my assumption is ·6· ·that someone that recognizes my error would know that I was ·7· ·making an error. ·8· · · ·Q.· ·So that assumption is not borne out by the record, ·9· ·is it? 10· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. 11· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't quite know. 12· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 13· · · ·Q.· ·Do you recall any board member -- after hearing 14· ·your observations about what was contained on the Bootz & 15· ·Duke website, did any board member say within the context 16· ·of the hearing, that's improper; we can't consider that; 17· ·you shouldn't be doing that? 18· · · ·A.· ·There is one area.· If I may, I would like to 19· ·check in the record before a vote was cast, if I may. 20· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Sure. 21· · · ·A.· ·I'm looking for -- it's possible on page 32 on 22· ·line 20, Board Member Cole.· This is just from my 23· ·recollection.· This could be completely an error and not 24· ·specific to your question, sir. 25· · · ·Q.· ·Aren't these comments by Mr. Cole more relating to Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:17:46 10:18:05 10:18:16 10:18:32 10:19:28 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 44 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·when the sign would come on and go off? ·2· · · ·A.· ·I believe so.· That was my recollection. ·3· · · · · · · · ·And so in error, if I may, would you please ·4· ·repeat the question. ·5· · · ·Q.· ·Sure. ·6· · · · · · · · ·You said that you, in effect, made an ·7· ·assumption that if someone disagreed with your having ·8· ·brought in extra-record evidence, they would have said ·9· ·something or observed that it was improper.· Is that your 10· ·testimony? 11· · · ·A.· ·It is possible that is the case. 12· · · ·Q.· ·But my -- my follow-up question was: But the 13· ·record doesn't bear that out; that is, no member of the 14· ·board ever called you out on the fact you were bringing in 15· ·improper evidence to the proceedings; correct? 16· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. 17· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That's correct. 18· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 19· · · ·Q.· ·Now, Ms. Gomes was in attendance at the hearing; 20· ·correct? 21· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 22· · · ·Q.· ·Did she make any objection or raise any issues 23· ·with respect to this activity where you were bringing in 24· ·extra-record evidence? 25· · · ·A.· ·No, she did not. Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:19:40 10:19:56 10:20:09 10:20:21 10:20:28 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 45 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·Q.· ·Was counsel present?· Were there lawyers present ·2· ·from the city there for this hearing? ·3· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. ·4· · · ·Q.· ·Who was there? ·5· · · ·A.· ·To my knowledge, Mr. Danny Inglese was there and ·6· ·possibly Mr. Paul Li.· But respectfully, I do not recollect ·7· ·if he was or was not there at that time. ·8· · · ·Q.· ·Mr. Paul Li is also a city attorney? ·9· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 10· · · ·Q.· ·Did either Mr. Inglese or Mr. Li, if he was there, 11· ·raise any objections, either substantive or procedural, 12· ·about you bringing in this outside evidence? 13· · · ·A.· ·As the record states, no.· They did not. 14· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· I'd just like to clarify for 15· ·the court reporter it's Li, L-i. 16· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 17· · · ·Q.· ·So I'm going to go back to the original.· You said 18· ·you made an assumption, but there really is nothing in the 19· ·record that supports the assumption.· Let me go back to the 20· ·earlier question I asked. 21· · · · · · · · ·You having credibility with the other board 22· ·members, sitting here today, do you believe that they would 23· ·trust and respect you if you were to present evidence to 24· ·them about a matter that's the subject of their review? 25· · · ·A.· ·Yes, I do. Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:20:35 10:20:53 10:21:09 10:21:25 10:21:43 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 46 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·Q.· ·So do you think that the evidence you were ·2· ·providing from the Bootz & Duke website; that is, the ·3· ·evidence regarding the St. Luke's Catholic sign, was a part ·4· ·of their decision-making process? ·5· · · ·A.· ·Could have been. ·6· · · ·Q.· ·It may have affected their decision? ·7· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to form and foundation. ·8· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· It may have. ·9· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 10· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· It's hard to reconstruct that now; right? 11· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 12· · · ·Q.· ·And it would be fair to say that they like and 13· ·respect you, so they're not looking to make things 14· ·difficult for you; fair, the other board members? 15· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Foundation. 16· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. 17· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 18· · · ·Q.· ·So is it possible that this review you did of the 19· ·Bootz & Duke website affected your decision-making process? 20· · · ·A.· ·It is possible. 21· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Now, if we go to then page 30, line 8, 22· ·you -- you can review if you need to, Mr. Ammon.· But at 23· ·this point, basically all the discussion has occurred? 24· · · ·A.· ·Uh-huh. 25· · · ·Q.· ·And I think under normal proceedings then, one of Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:22:04 10:22:12 10:22:30 10:22:53 10:23:14 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 47 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·the board members would move for a particular result; is ·2· ·that fair, in the proceedings? ·3· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·4· · · ·Q.· ·In this case -- I'm reading from the transcript of ·5· ·your testimony.· You're being asked by the chairman if you ·6· ·have a motion or comments or questions or -- I'm sorry. ·7· · · · · · · · ·He says, I will entertain a motion. ·8· · · · · · · · ·Then you say, I do certainly, in respecting ·9· ·everybody's opinion in the matter, and certainly the zoning 10· ·adjustment hearing officer, but seeing some of the other 11· ·work that's been done, I -- I do actually make a motion to 12· ·overturn the zoning adjustment hearing officer's take on 13· ·this so as to approve the sign.· I approve this to be 14· ·transition, and that is -- that is my motion based off of 15· ·the points that we have heard, and that I do think it meets 16· ·the needs, and it's certainly not detrimental. 17· · · · · · · · ·Did I read that correctly? 18· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 19· · · ·Q.· ·So when you say "but seeing some of the other work 20· ·that's been done," you're referring to the St. Luke's 21· ·Catholic Church sign? 22· · · ·A.· ·No, sir.· I'm not. 23· · · ·Q.· ·Are you looking at the signage that's been done by 24· ·Bootz & Duke? 25· · · ·A.· ·I'm looking at information that was presented to Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:23:28 10:23:49 10:24:09 10:24:18 10:24:31 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 48 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·us, along with experience with the city and having grown up ·2· ·here and seeing signs and just personal experience and ·3· ·personal knowledge of the -- personal knowledge. ·4· · · · · · · · ·And respectfully, this was made clear at the ·5· ·following Board of Adjustment meeting where I clarified ·6· ·that statement on the record. ·7· · · ·Q.· ·So let's go back to this statement. ·8· · · · · · · · ·It says, But seeing some of the other work ·9· ·that's been done. 10· · · · · · · · ·What other work are you referring to? 11· · · ·A.· ·The work throughout the city that I had seen that 12· ·I had driven by, and including the work that was seen on 13· ·the Bootz & Duke website. 14· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So when you're talking about the other work 15· ·that's been done, it includes the work that you viewed on 16· ·the Bootz & Duke website? 17· · · ·A.· ·And it -- and it includes additional -- 18· ·additional -- it also includes the presentation that was 19· ·given to us by Bootz & Duke. 20· · · ·Q.· ·When you say other work, wouldn't you be saying -- 21· ·if you're just talking about the presentations by the 22· ·parties at the hearing, wouldn't you be saying this work? 23· · · ·A.· ·Most respectfully, as you can see, I am quite 24· ·wordy in my explanations, and there's a much more pithy way 25· ·to communicate much of what I say. Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:24:53 10:25:08 10:25:24 10:25:44 10:26:00 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 49 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So you're saying -- but some of the other ·2· ·work that's been done, you're talking about other signs ·3· ·you've seen in the city and the information you got on the ·4· ·Bootz & Duke website? ·5· · · ·A.· ·And the Hopi Elementary presentation and the Hopi ·6· ·Elementary documentation that was shown to us in our ·7· ·presentation.· And to answer your question, yes. ·8· · · ·Q.· ·Have you ever seen this happen -- well, let me ask ·9· ·you: Have you ever engaged in this process of bringing in 10· ·extra-record evidence to a hearing before the Board of 11· ·Adjustment -- 12· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. 13· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 14· · · ·Q.· ·-- other than this instance? 15· · · ·A.· ·No. 16· · · ·Q.· ·Do you know whether any other board member, in 17· ·your experience, has ever brought in extra-record evidence 18· ·during the hearing -- an ongoing hearing by an applicant? 19· · · ·A.· ·No. 20· · · ·Q.· ·Do you ever do any texting during hearings when 21· ·you're a decision-maker? 22· · · ·A.· ·No. 23· · · ·Q.· ·And do you know whether any of the other board 24· ·members ever do any texting during the board proceedings? 25· · · ·A.· ·No. Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:26:15 10:26:37 10:26:44 10:27:03 10:27:19 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 50 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·Q.· ·So the -- are you familiar with the hearing that ·2· ·occurred regarding a marijuana dispensary at 4456 East ·3· ·Thomas Road? ·4· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. ·5· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I believe so, yes. ·6· ·BY MR. DEWULF: ·7· · · ·Q.· ·And were you one of the members of the Board of ·8· ·Adjustment that was reviewing the application by the ·9· ·dispensary? 10· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 11· · · ·Q.· ·Do you remember what they were seeking to do? 12· · · ·A.· ·If I am thinking of the correct case, I believe 13· ·they were requesting a variance for a hardship -- due to a 14· ·hardship based off of specific -- searching a hardship -- 15· ·for a hardship to get a variance, if I'm thinking of the 16· ·right case. 17· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So the date of the hearing was January 8, 18· ·2021.· So it wasn't that long ago. 19· · · ·A.· ·Uh-huh. 20· · · ·Q.· ·And it's ZA-324-20.· And this may refresh your 21· ·memory. 22· · · · · · · · ·Do you remember there being an issue that 23· ·arose in the hearing regarding a gate on the dispensary? 24· · · ·A.· ·I do remember there being a gate associated with 25· ·the presentation. Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:27:38 10:27:48 10:28:12 10:28:22 10:28:41 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 51 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·Q.· ·Do you recall you, during the hearing, doing a ·2· ·Google Earth search to determine what the gate looked like ·3· ·and where it was located on the property? ·4· · · ·A.· ·I do.· Yes, sir, I do. ·5· · · ·Q.· ·Do you recall that you used that information to ·6· ·support your vote in favor of the variance or whatever they ·7· ·were seeking? ·8· · · ·A.· ·I do. ·9· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And that was because you felt that the 10· ·presence of the gate then prevented dispensary customers or 11· ·traffic from interfering with the adjacent residential 12· ·parties? 13· · · ·A.· ·I believe so. 14· · · ·Q.· ·Do you remember that there was a condo complex 15· ·adjacent to the dispensary? 16· · · ·A.· ·If it is the condo complex to the north of the 17· ·dispensary, then yes.· The answer to the question is yes. 18· · · ·Q.· ·So your Google Earth search played a role in your 19· ·decision to grant the variance or grant whatever the relief 20· ·being requested was? 21· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. 22· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. 23· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 24· · · ·Q.· ·Did you share that information with the other 25· ·board members in connection with this application by the Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:28:55 10:29:07 10:29:21 10:29:37 10:29:43 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 52 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·dispensary? ·2· · · ·A.· ·If -- not having the minutes in front of me and ·3· ·not knowing what was communicated, by sharing, ·4· ·communicating that I had looked and was looking on Google ·5· ·Earth so as to make the statement, then the answer is yes, ·6· ·I shared information verbally based on what I was looking ·7· ·at. ·8· · · · · · · · ·But in terms of sharing via any digital or ·9· ·face-to-face, then the answer to that question is no. 10· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 11· · · ·Q.· ·So you again, in that instance, were verbally 12· ·providing information to the other board members regarding 13· ·a -- in a hearing for an active application without sharing 14· ·the information with the participants in the hearing? 15· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. 16· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I drive many of the sites 17· ·before the cases.· Google Earth takes you there as well. I 18· ·drove that site.· I know that site.· I -- so I guess the 19· ·answer to your question is yes. 20· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 21· · · ·Q.· ·Well, you drove the site, but did you notice where 22· ·the gate was located? 23· · · ·A.· ·Respectfully, I do not recall. 24· · · ·Q.· ·Probably didn't need -- well, do you typically 25· ·drive by the sites that are the subject of the decisions Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:29:57 10:30:11 10:30:29 10:30:42 10:30:53 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 53 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·that the board has to make? ·2· · · ·A.· ·More than 50 percent of them, yes. ·3· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· But you felt the need in this case; that ·4· ·is, the marijuana dispensary case, to do a Google Earth ·5· ·review because you did not know whether there was a gate or ·6· ·not on the property? ·7· · · ·A.· ·That is correct. ·8· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And so once you discovered there was a gate ·9· ·on the property, then you assumed that there would not be 10· ·an adverse impact on the neighbors? 11· · · ·A.· ·That is correct. 12· · · ·Q.· ·Did you know that the neighbors that were impacted 13· ·by this, that residential building contained a business 14· ·office as well? 15· · · ·A.· ·No, I did not know that. 16· · · ·Q.· ·Did you ever learn that the business office 17· ·required the gate to be open during the daylight hours? 18· · · ·A.· ·No, sir. 19· · · ·Q.· ·Would that change your view about whether the 20· ·variance ought to have been granted if you learned that 21· ·that gate wasn't kept closed during the daylight hours? 22· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to form. 23· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· In hindsight, it could have. 24· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 25· · · ·Q.· ·But sitting here today, that's news to you? Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:31:10 10:31:23 10:31:35 10:31:45 10:31:56 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 54 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·2· · · ·Q.· ·Okay. ·3· · · · · · · · ·MR. DEWULF:· Go off the record. ·4· · · · · · · · ·(An off-the-record discussion ensued.) ·5· ·BY MR. DEWULF: ·6· · · ·Q.· ·Do you think, sitting here today, after having ·7· ·served on the Board of Adjustment for four years, that ·8· ·there are ways that the city could improve its support of ·9· ·you in the role as a Board of Adjustment member? 10· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 11· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. 12· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 13· · · ·Q.· ·How? 14· · · ·A.· ·Sorry.· Yes. 15· · · ·Q.· ·How? 16· · · ·A.· ·Refreshers of rules to follow, clarifications on 17· ·what is and is not permitted, especially in relation to -- 18· ·and I say this as clearly as possible -- software that 19· ·virtually immerses us in the location so as to physically 20· ·be present in those spaces.· It's a very important point. 21· · · ·Q.· ·So are you saying that you think a way that the 22· ·city could support you is to provide you such software in 23· ·connection with the performance of your duties? 24· · · ·A.· ·No.· It would be to give us guidance on what is 25· ·and isn't allowed in the use of the software so as to come Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:32:28 10:32:55 10:32:58 10:33:36 10:33:52 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 55 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·to prudent conclusions for the betterment of the community. ·2· · · ·Q.· ·So you're saying that in connection with the city ·3· ·supporting the Board of Adjustment in its performance of ·4· ·its duties, they could use more clarity in terms of what ·5· ·can or can't be brought in as evidence and refreshers ·6· ·periodically about that? ·7· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·8· · · ·Q.· ·In your view, as a member of the Board of ·9· ·Adjustment, what is required to uphold a hearing officer's 10· ·decision? 11· · · ·A.· ·To uphold a hearing -- zoning adjustment hearing 12· ·officer's decision is to -- may I look at an exhibit? 13· · · ·Q.· ·You can look at anything you want. 14· · · ·A.· ·I'll be quick with my time here. 15· · · ·Q.· ·You're fine. 16· · · ·A.· ·The question is specific to upholding ZAHO's 17· ·decision? 18· · · ·Q.· ·Yes. 19· · · ·A.· ·Is to either confirm or deny that their decision 20· ·is in line with the granting of the use permit or the 21· ·variances, and to decide whether or not the ZAHO's decision 22· ·is in line with the requirements that need to be met for 23· ·the granting of the use permit variances. 24· · · ·Q.· ·When you say ZAHO -- 25· · · ·A.· ·Zoning adjustment hearing officer.· I apologize Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:34:16 10:34:38 10:35:04 10:35:18 10:35:39 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 56 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·for interrupting you.· Excuse me. ·2· · · ·Q.· ·That's okay.· Most people won't be familiar with ·3· ·that term. ·4· · · ·A.· ·Pardon me.· ZAHO, as I'm referring to, is the ·5· ·zoning adjustment hearing officer.· I will use zoning ·6· ·adjustment hearing officer from here on out. ·7· · · · · · · · ·MR. DEWULF:· Could you go back and read the ·8· ·answer that he gave?· The lengthy one before the last back ·9· ·and forth. 10· · · · · · · · ·(The record was read by the reporter as 11· ·follows: 12· · · · · · · · ·A.· Is to either confirm or deny that their 13· ·decision is in line with the granting of the use permit or 14· ·the variances, and to decide whether or not the ZAHO's 15· ·decision is in line with the requirements that need to be 16· ·met for the granting of the use permit variances.) 17· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 18· · · ·Q.· ·Let me ask a related question, which is: What do 19· ·you think is required to overturn a hearing officer's 20· ·decision? 21· · · ·A.· ·To disagree with a zoning adjustment hearing 22· ·officer's decision is to decide whether or not the 23· ·application to overturn -- whether or not to decide that 24· ·the zoning adjustment hearing officer's decision did or did 25· ·not meet the requirements for a variance or a use permit to Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:35:50 10:36:36 10:37:15 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 57 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·be granted. ·2· · · · · · · · ·(The document was marked as Exhibit 6 for ·3· ·identification.) ·4· ·BY MR. DEWULF: ·5· · · ·Q.· ·I'm showing you Exhibit 6, Mr. Ammon.· And there ·6· ·are two items addressed here.· The first one is, ·7· ·Requirements for granting use permits.· Do you see that? ·8· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. ·9· · · ·Q.· ·And in this case, the Bootz & Duke folks were 10· ·seeking a use permit for Camelback Church of Christ; 11· ·correct? 12· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 13· · · ·Q.· ·And when you talked a moment ago in your testimony 14· ·about the requirements for use permit, are these the 15· ·requirements you're referring to?· This would guide the 16· ·decision by you and the other members of the board as to 17· ·whether or not to grant a use permit? 18· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 19· · · ·Q.· ·And then I guess drawing from that, this would 20· ·also guide whether or not you would affirm the decision by 21· ·the zoning adjustment administrator -- administrative 22· ·officer? 23· · · ·A.· ·That's correct. 24· · · ·Q.· ·Okay. 25· · · · · · · · ·MR. DEWULF:· Let's take a five-minute break. Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:37:52 10:38:10 10:38:23 10:38:42 10:38:58 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 58 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·Let me look at my notes.· I think I'm close to being done. ·2· · · · · · · · ·(A recess ensued.) ·3· ·BY MR. DEWULF: ·4· · · ·Q.· ·So I wanted to clarify something. ·5· · · · · · · · ·At the time of the hearing that is ·6· ·transcribed in Exhibit 5, which is the February 3, 2022, ·7· ·hearing, you did not know anything about the St. Luke's ·8· ·Catholic Church sign other than what you visually saw on ·9· ·the Bootz & Duke website? 10· · · ·A.· ·Correct. 11· · · ·Q.· ·So you really didn't know anything about its 12· ·location, the surrounding environment, the area, anything 13· ·like that; fair? 14· · · ·A.· ·Correct. 15· · · ·Q.· ·So in terms of whether it was an analogous 16· ·situation; that is, the sign at St. Luke's Catholic Church 17· ·on 7th Avenue versus the sign being contemplated for the 18· ·Camelback Church of Christ, you didn't know one way or the 19· ·other? 20· · · ·A.· ·Correct. 21· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· You indicated in your testimony, Mr. Ammon, 22· ·that one of the ways that the city could better support you 23· ·would be, among other things, to refresh you and your 24· ·knowledge and to clarify approaches to things like evidence 25· ·and procedural issues in your performance as a member of Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:51:49 10:52:12 10:52:20 10:52:35 10:52:55 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 59 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·the Board of Adjustment; correct? ·2· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·3· · · ·Q.· ·Have you gotten any sort of additional training, ·4· ·refreshers, updates after the training that you got, which ·5· ·is reflected in the PowerPoint in Exhibit 3 on August 30, ·6· ·2018? ·7· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· I would caution the witness not ·8· ·to reveal any private conversations with counsel. ·9· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· The only additional guidance -- 10· ·and I will call it guidance as opposed to training -- was 11· ·as we were transitioning into remote work due to COVID. 12· · · · · · · · ·So getting used to the remote sessions 13· ·included a few conversations with the -- with the zoning 14· ·administrator and Paul Li communicating to us that we would 15· ·be transitioning to remote work.· The details of those 16· ·conversations and what was refreshed and trained, 17· ·respectfully, I do not recall. 18· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 19· · · ·Q.· ·Whatever training that you received in connection 20· ·with working remotely would not have been addressing issues 21· ·of evidence, legal procedure, testimony, those kinds of 22· ·things? 23· · · ·A.· ·That is correct. 24· · · ·Q.· ·All right.· After the events that occurred on 25· ·February 3 in the aftermath of the vote by the board, other Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:53:14 10:53:28 10:53:53 10:54:06 10:54:22 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 60 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·than communications with counsel, did you talk to anyone ·2· ·else about that hearing? ·3· · · ·A.· ·No, I did not. ·4· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· There was a follow-up vote, I guess, in ·5· ·response to a motion for reconsideration; correct? ·6· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·7· · · ·Q.· ·Did you talk to any other board members in the ·8· ·context of making a decision on the motion for ·9· ·reconsideration? 10· · · ·A.· ·No. 11· · · ·Q.· ·So when you came -- when you had the vote and the 12· ·motion for reconsideration, the board members did not speak 13· ·among themselves about that decision, but rather each just 14· ·voted separately as to whether they favored or did not 15· ·favor the motion for reconsideration? 16· · · ·A.· ·Correct. 17· · · ·Q.· ·So you never, after the hearing that was 18· ·February 3, 2022, ever spoke to any other board member as 19· ·to the substance of the hearing? 20· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. 21· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Correct. 22· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 23· · · ·Q.· ·Sitting here today, and looking back on the 24· ·situation, the hearing and what transpired, do you think 25· ·you would do anything differently? Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:54:40 10:54:53 10:55:10 10:55:25 10:55:40 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 61 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·2· · · ·Q.· ·What would you have done?· Or what would you do? ·3· · · ·A.· ·What I would do is allow for questions of the ·4· ·opposition as opposed to moving right into a motion. ·5· · · ·Q.· ·Would it have been prudent or fair to perhaps ·6· ·provide a delay or a continuance to allow the parties to ·7· ·specifically address this issue of the Bootz & Duke website ·8· ·and the St. Luke's sign? ·9· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to form. 10· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· No, I don't believe it would 11· ·be.· I can't state the specific ones because I do not 12· ·recall.· We have not had many continuances for reasons 13· ·specific to what you have addressed. 14· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 15· · · ·Q.· ·So I'm thinking about from a fairness standpoint, 16· ·you have the Arcadia homeowners who were caught flatfooted 17· ·regarding this evidence they've never seen or heard about; 18· ·right? 19· · · ·A.· ·Uh-huh. 20· · · ·Q.· ·Yes? 21· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 22· · · ·Q.· ·And you have the appellant, Bootz & Duke, who at 23· ·least purport to know a lot about the St. Luke's Catholic 24· ·sign; correct? 25· · · ·A.· ·Yes. Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:56:00 10:56:20 10:56:35 10:56:45 10:56:57 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 62 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·Q.· ·So even if you were to allow on-the-record ·2· ·responses to questions or statements relating to the ·3· ·signage that you introduced into the hearing from the Bootz ·4· ·& Duke website, the Arcadia homeowners would still be at a ·5· ·disadvantage because they wouldn't have had an opportunity ·6· ·to research whether in fact the sign that you're referring ·7· ·to, the St. Luke's Catholic Church, is analogous to the ·8· ·situation before the board and its decision -- ·9· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to form. 10· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 11· · · ·Q.· ·-- right? 12· · · ·A.· ·Based off of the presentation that the Arcadia 13· ·homeowners association gave, they referenced images from 14· ·Bootz & Duke that did not represent other church signs. 15· ·From my recollection, there was a Botox sign, hair removal 16· ·sign, and I believe an image of Kramer getting roasted in 17· ·one of the Seinfeld episodes.· Those are the three images I 18· ·remember from that presentation. 19· · · · · · · · ·It could have been prudent for them to 20· ·include other church signs, as it would have been prudent 21· ·for Bootz & Duke to include additional church signs.· To 22· ·answer your question -- I believe the answer to your 23· ·question is yes. 24· · · ·Q.· ·Yes what? 25· · · ·A.· ·You asked about the fairness.· If you could please Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:57:12 10:57:25 10:57:44 10:58:05 10:58:23 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 63 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·restate the question. ·2· · · ·Q.· ·Well, what I'm asking you is: Would you agree with ·3· ·me that it was not fair to the Arcadia homeowners to spring ·4· ·this new evidence upon them regarding a sign that has ·5· ·never -- that isn't in the record when Bootz & Duke ·6· ·purports to know that sign and its history and its detail ·7· ·and Arcadia has no familiarity with it? ·8· · · ·A.· ·That is correct.· That is unfair. ·9· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Now, but you wouldn't be willing -- looking 10· ·back on it now, and if you had your druthers and you could 11· ·redo all of this, you don't think that a continuance or 12· ·some sort of an opportunity to research and determine 13· ·whether that sign, which played a role in the decision of 14· ·the board, could be evaluated on whether it was analogous 15· ·to the sign that was the subject of the application by the 16· ·Camelback Church of Christ? 17· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. 18· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I think that would have been a 19· ·very -- I think that would have been a prudent direction to 20· ·go with the introduction of additional material based off 21· ·of a board member communicating to both parties stating 22· ·that some additional communication could be had based off 23· ·of additional evidence that could be introduced. 24· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 25· · · ·Q.· ·So in looking at the proceedings, it was Bootz & Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 10:58:41 10:58:59 10:59:18 10:59:30 10:59:47 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 64 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·Duke's burden of proof to -- as the applicant/appellant to ·2· ·persuade the Board of Adjustment to overturn the decision ·3· ·by the zoning adjustment hearing officer; right? ·4· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·5· · · ·Q.· ·So if they were interested in presenting to the ·6· ·board analogous church signs, they could have done that; ·7· ·right? ·8· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·9· · · ·Q.· ·And in your view, it would have been prudent for 10· ·them to do so; right? 11· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 12· · · ·Q.· ·And because they failed to make that presentation; 13· ·that is, there is a gap in the presentation, you felt the 14· ·need to do the additional research to answer for your own 15· ·purposes whether there were church signs that they had done 16· ·that could be analogous to the one that was the subject of 17· ·the application? 18· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. 19· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. 20· · · · · · · · ·MR. DEWULF:· No further questions. 21 22· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION 23· ·BY MR. INGLESE: 24· · · ·Q.· ·I have a few questions. 25· · · · · · · · ·Mr. Ammon, are you familiar with the factors Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 11:00:17 11:00:29 11:00:41 11:00:51 11:00:56 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 65 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·that the board is supposed to assess when granting or ·2· ·denying a use permit? ·3· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·4· · · ·Q.· ·And do you recall any discussion today about glare ·5· ·exceeding ambient conditions? ·6· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·7· · · ·Q.· ·Did Bootz & Duke submit any evidence regarding the ·8· ·glare that would be emitted by the sign? ·9· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 10· · · ·Q.· ·What did that evidence consist of? 11· · · ·A.· ·I believe it was light studies of how far -- of 12· ·how the intensity of the glare at specific distances in 13· ·plan view or bird's eye view of what the glare would be 14· ·after a specific distance and showing that it decreased 15· ·over a period of -- over distance. 16· · · ·Q.· ·Did you find that evidence credible? 17· · · ·A.· ·I did. 18· · · ·Q.· ·Did you find that evidence persuasive? 19· · · ·A.· ·I did. 20· · · ·Q.· ·Did you believe that this sign would cause a 21· ·significant increase in vehicular or pedestrian traffic in 22· ·any adjacent residential areas? 23· · · ·A.· ·No, I did not. 24· · · ·Q.· ·Did you believe this sign would emit odor, dust, 25· ·gas, noise, vibration, smoke, heat, or glare at levels Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 11:01:12 11:01:21 11:01:45 11:01:52 11:02:05 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 66 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·exceeding ambient levels? ·2· · · ·A.· ·No. ·3· · · ·Q.· ·Did you believe that this sign would contribute in ·4· ·a measurable way to the deterioration of the area or the ·5· ·lowering of property values? ·6· · · ·A.· ·No, I did not. ·7· · · ·Q.· ·And why not? ·8· · · ·A.· ·Because based off of the material that was ·9· ·presented to us with the lighting conditions, I decided 10· ·that the glare or the light levels of that area are below 11· ·that of ambient conditions based off of the studies that 12· ·were shown to us. 13· · · ·Q.· ·And did you believe that the sign would comply 14· ·with all relevant zoning laws? 15· · · ·A.· ·Yes, I did.· And I believe there is information in 16· ·the minutes that support that. 17· · · ·Q.· ·Do you recall discussion today about the term low 18· ·profile? 19· · · ·A.· ·I do. 20· · · ·Q.· ·Are you aware of any industry standard or other 21· ·standardized meaning of that term? 22· · · ·A.· ·No, I'm not. 23· · · ·Q.· ·Do you remember any discussion today about the 24· ·term extra record? 25· · · ·A.· ·About today? Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 11:02:17 11:02:33 11:02:51 11:03:03 11:03:17 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 67 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·Q.· ·Today. ·2· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·3· · · ·Q.· ·To the best of your knowledge, does that term ·4· ·appear anywhere in the Board of Adjustment's rules of ·5· ·procedure? ·6· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·7· · · ·Q.· ·The term extra record? ·8· · · ·A.· ·Oh, no, it does not.· Excuse me.· I misunderstood ·9· ·that. 10· · · ·Q.· ·Do you recall discussing use of Google Earth and 11· ·Google Maps today? 12· · · ·A.· ·I do. 13· · · ·Q.· ·In your service as a member of the Board of 14· ·Adjustment, do you frequently look at Google Earth or 15· ·Google Maps either during hearings or in preparation for 16· ·hearings? 17· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 18· · · ·Q.· ·Has anybody ever advised you that it would be 19· ·improper to look at Google Earth or Google Maps? 20· · · ·A.· ·No, they have not. 21· · · ·Q.· ·Do you believe that other members of the Board of 22· ·Adjustment also use those tools? 23· · · ·A.· ·I do. 24· · · ·Q.· ·Remind me how -- how long have you lived in the 25· ·city of Phoenix? Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 11:03:27 11:03:35 11:03:48 11:03:58 11:04:11 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 68 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·A.· ·On and off, 32 years. ·2· · · ·Q.· ·Do you have knowledge of the various neighborhoods ·3· ·within the city? ·4· · · ·A.· ·Yes.· Based off of timeframe and knowledge of ·5· ·living here, but also as a practicing architect who has a ·6· ·passion for the built environment, yes. ·7· · · ·Q.· ·Do you rely on that knowledge as a member of the ·8· ·Board of Adjustment? ·9· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 10· · · ·Q.· ·Has anybody ever advised you that it is improper 11· ·to rely on that knowledge? 12· · · ·A.· ·No. 13· · · ·Q.· ·Do you believe that knowledge helps you in service 14· ·of your duties as a member of the Board of Adjustment? 15· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 16· · · ·Q.· ·I'd like to briefly -- do you recall Mr. DeWulf 17· ·asking you questions about the Bootz & Duke website today? 18· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 19· · · ·Q.· ·When you said -- did you say that you had to 20· ·search the website? 21· · · ·A.· ·I did. 22· · · ·Q.· ·Do you recall -- when you use the word "search," 23· ·did you mean searching on a search bar or just clicking 24· ·through the website? 25· · · ·A.· ·Clicking through the website. Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 11:04:36 11:04:47 11:04:55 11:05:11 11:05:21 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 69 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·Q.· ·Do you believe that decisions of the Board of ·2· ·Adjustment are precedential? ·3· · · · · · · · ·MR. DEWULF:· I'll object.· Vague and ·4· ·ambiguous. ·5· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· I'll retract the question. ·6· ·BY MR. INGLESE: ·7· · · ·Q.· ·In discussing cases before the Board of ·8· ·Adjustment, do you ever discuss previous cases that the ·9· ·board has heard? 10· · · ·A.· ·Would you ask the question one more time? 11· · · ·Q.· ·Sorry.· It was not well-worded. 12· · · ·A.· ·It's fine. 13· · · ·Q.· ·At Board of Adjustment hearings, do you and your 14· ·fellow members of the Board of Adjustment ever make 15· ·reference to or discuss other cases that you've decided 16· ·previously in the context of deciding a case before you? 17· · · ·A.· ·I believe so, yes. 18· · · ·Q.· ·And finally, do you remember Mr. DeWulf asking you 19· ·questions about your preparation for today's deposition? 20· · · ·A.· ·I do. 21· · · ·Q.· ·You said that you reviewed the minutes of the 22· ·Board of Adjustment, but did you -- what did you mean when 23· ·you used the word "minutes"? 24· · · ·A.· ·I read through the reporter's transcript of the 25· ·audio recordings. Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 11:05:39 11:05:52 11:06:02 11:06:18 11:06:42 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 70 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did you also read the record that was ·2· ·submitted to the Board of Adjustment? ·3· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·4· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So we -- and you said you and I met for ·5· ·45 minutes this morning; is that correct? ·6· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·7· · · ·Q.· ·Did we meet at any other time before today? ·8· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·9· · · ·Q.· ·How long did we meet for? 10· · · ·A.· ·I believe around 30 to 45 minutes, maybe an hour. 11· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you recall when that was? 12· · · ·A.· ·I believe it was the week before last. 13· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Let me just review my notes really quickly. 14· · · · · · · · ·Are there signs similar to the one at issue 15· ·in this hearing in your neighborhood? 16· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 17· · · ·Q.· ·And do you believe, as a member of the Board of 18· ·Adjustment, you are permitted to rely on your knowledge of 19· ·those signs in cases you hear before the Board of 20· ·Adjustment? 21· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 22· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· No further questions. 23· ·/// 24· ·/// 25· ·/// Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 11:06:56 11:07:04 11:07:29 11:07:44 11:07:48 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 71 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · · · · · · · · · FURTHER EXAMINATION ·2· ·BY MR. DEWULF: ·3· · · ·Q.· ·I have a couple of questions to follow up and ·4· ·clarify. ·5· · · · · · · · ·Would you agree with me that the Arcadia ·6· ·neighborhood is unique? ·7· · · ·A.· ·I would. ·8· · · ·Q.· ·And we know that it is -- it was the subject of -- ·9· ·I'm trying to get the name of the plan. 10· · · · · · · · ·There was a master plan for that area; 11· ·correct? 12· · · ·A.· ·Is this in reference to the Frank Lloyd Wright 13· ·house? 14· · · ·Q.· ·No.· The actual neighborhood was the subject of a 15· ·study by the city and came up with recommendations on how 16· ·the city ought to be mindful of the kinds of things that 17· ·made it unique, and to try to be consistent with the 18· ·character of the neighborhood. 19· · · ·A.· ·Is this in their 1999 submittal that was approved 20· ·by city council of the Arcadia board or the Arcadia design 21· ·committee? 22· · · ·Q.· ·I don't know the answer to that.· There is the 23· ·Arcadia Camelback Special District adopted in 1999. 24· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 25· · · ·Q.· ·Are you familiar with that? Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 11:07:57 11:08:34 11:08:45 11:09:05 11:09:19 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 72 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·A.· ·I am.· Yes, sir. ·2· · · ·Q.· ·Have you read it? ·3· · · ·A.· ·I have not perused it.· I have skimmed it. ·4· · · ·Q.· ·Would you agree with me that that is a reflection ·5· ·at least to the fact that Arcadia is a unique neighborhood ·6· ·whose character needs to be preserved and protected? ·7· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·8· · · ·Q.· ·And you understood that that fact; that is, the ·9· ·unique character and traits of the Arcadia neighborhood, 10· ·was an important part of the decision made by the zoning 11· ·adjustment hearing officer in originally denying the sign 12· ·application; correct? 13· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 14· · · ·Q.· ·So when you talk about -- or counsel asked you 15· ·about discussing previous cases relating to signage, every 16· ·case is unique because your decision is going to be a 17· ·function of all of those kinds of things that bear on the 18· ·analysis of how it impacts the neighboring area; correct? 19· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 20· · · ·Q.· ·And we looked at the use permit analysis that is 21· ·in Exhibit 6, and it does talk about things like vehicular 22· ·and pedestrian traffic, odor, dust, gas, noise, vibration, 23· ·smoke, heat, and glare; correct? 24· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 25· · · ·Q.· ·Ambient conditions, in your vernacular, does that Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 11:09:29 11:09:48 11:10:09 11:10:27 11:10:48 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 73 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·just mean surrounding conditions? ·2· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·3· · · ·Q.· ·And the former sign that existed on this property ·4· ·for the Camelback church was a backlit, low-profile sign; ·5· ·correct? ·6· · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·7· · · ·Q.· ·And the new sign that was the subject of their ·8· ·application was larger and was a digital display; right? ·9· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 10· · · ·Q.· ·And so clearly, visually it's a very different 11· ·presentation to a person who's driving down Camelback or 12· ·walking by the church; true? 13· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 14· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So it would -- that is, the presence of a 15· ·digital sign compared to a small backlit sign would 16· ·increase the level of glare as a part of the ambient 17· ·conditions; true? 18· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 19· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. 20· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 21· · · ·Q.· ·So your counsel asked you about looking at Google 22· ·Maps and Google Earth.· Do you recall those questions? 23· · · ·A.· ·I do. 24· · · ·Q.· ·In terms of fairness to the parties in the Board 25· ·of Adjustment hearings, if you are bringing in evidence Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 11:11:15 11:11:27 11:11:43 11:11:59 11:12:12 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 74 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·that is not being presented by the parties, do you feel an ·2· ·obligation to share that with the parties? ·3· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. ·4· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. ·5· ·BY MR. DEWULF: ·6· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And so while most of us might have the ·7· ·ability to go on Google Earth and check, for example, what ·8· ·the view was of the marijuana dispensary on 44th Street, in ·9· ·order to be fair to the parties, they would have had -- 10· ·they should be given notice ahead of time so they could 11· ·prepare for analyzing and responding to that evidence; 12· ·correct? 13· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 14· · · ·Q.· ·And similarly, in our case, if we're going to 15· ·bring in evidence that relates to something that's not a 16· ·part of the presentations by the parties that's evidence 17· ·that could relate to the decision by the board, you ought 18· ·to be giving notice and an opportunity to respond by the 19· ·participants -- 20· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to form. 21· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 22· · · ·Q.· ·-- in the hearing? 23· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 24· · · ·Q.· ·Counsel asked you whether the word "extra record" 25· ·was a part of the presentations or preparation materials Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 11:12:26 11:12:49 11:13:01 11:13:19 11:13:28 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 75 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·that the city had provided to you, and you said, no, it ·2· ·wasn't; right? ·3· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. ·4· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That's correct. ·5· ·BY MR. DEWULF: ·6· · · ·Q.· ·But when we talked about -- in my questioning of ·7· ·you in your deposition, when we talked about extra record, ·8· ·you understood that to be evidence or testimony that was ·9· ·outside of the evidence being provided by the parties at 10· ·the hearing; right? 11· · · ·A.· ·Yes. 12· · · ·Q.· ·And so in the way we commonly understand this 13· ·term, the introduction of evidence from the Bootz & Duke 14· ·website, including specifically information regarding the 15· ·St. Luke's Catholic Church sign, was extra-record evidence 16· ·or evidence outside of the -- of that which is presented by 17· ·the parties at the hearing; right? 18· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. 19· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. 20· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 21· · · ·Q.· ·There were questions asked by your counsel about 22· ·the impact on traffic.· But you understood that part of the 23· ·reason the church wanted the sign is to draw more people to 24· ·their church; right? 25· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 11:13:41 11:13:54 11:14:10 11:14:22 11:14:43 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 76 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. ·2· ·BY MR. DEWULF: ·3· · · ·Q.· ·Save a few souls if they could? ·4· · · ·A.· ·If they could. ·5· · · ·Q.· ·All right.· So that -- to the extent that we're ·6· ·talking about traffic or traffic congestion, either ·7· ·pedestrian or vehicular, clearly that would be a change in ·8· ·the traffic; that is, that would result from the sign ·9· ·change; right? 10· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· Object to the form. 11· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Most respectfully, yes. 12· ·Although there are -- I'm going to throw out a random 13· ·number here.· Let's say there are 75 parking spaces in that 14· ·area and currently the church has zero cars parked. 15· ·Ambient conditions of parking is not zero.· It's 75.· And 16· ·they have an allowance to meet 75 parking spaces in that 17· ·area. 18· · · · · · · · ·And if they have a sign that is pulling 19· ·people in, it's increasing vehicular traffic, but it's also 20· ·filling an allowable amount of parking spaces on that site. 21· ·So it's not necessarily breaking ambient condition. 22· ·BY MR. DEWULF: 23· · · ·Q.· ·Did you ever do a traffic study of what would 24· ·happen before and after the introduction of this sign at 25· ·this location? Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 11:14:48 11:15:06 11:15:21 11:15:35 11:15:47 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 77 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· · · ·A.· ·Not personally, no. ·2· · · ·Q.· ·Did anyone? ·3· · · ·A.· ·No. ·4· · · ·Q.· ·Did Bootz & Duke ever do a traffic study? ·5· · · ·A.· ·They did not. ·6· · · ·Q.· ·So you don't know one way or the other whether ·7· ·folks are filling those 75 spots of parking in that lot or ·8· ·not; right? ·9· · · ·A.· ·No, sir. 10· · · ·Q.· ·But it would be fair to say that the whole purpose 11· ·of spending the money on the sign is to draw people into 12· ·that location so they can park their cars in that lot; 13· ·right? 14· · · ·A.· ·Correct.· Yes, sir. 15· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So you've driven -- I think you testified 16· ·earlier you've driven Camelback Road many, many times? 17· · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir. 18· · · ·Q.· ·And I think you said that you lived here since you 19· ·were ten or something; right? 20· · · ·A.· ·Correct. 21· · · ·Q.· ·So in that span between 44th Street and Scottsdale 22· ·Road, this digital sign will be unique, a one-and-only type 23· ·of sign like that for that entire span of Camelback Road; 24· ·correct? 25· · · ·A.· ·I believe there are a few digital signs just west Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 11:15:52 11:16:02 11:16:14 11:16:44 11:17:02 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 78 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com YVer1f ·1· ·of Scottsdale Road on Camelback, but yes, up through -- ·2· ·getting close to Camelback -- getting close to Scottsdale ·3· ·Road and Camelback from 44th Street, the answer is yes. ·4· · · · · · · · ·MR. DEWULF:· No further questions.· Thanks. ·5· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· I'm good. ·6· · · · · · · · ·THE COURT REPORTER:· Daniel, do you want a ·7· ·copy of the transcript? ·8· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· That would be great. ·9· · · · · · · · ·THE COURT REPORTER:· E-tran only?· Electronic 10· ·only with exhibits? 11· · · · · · · · ·MR. INGLESE:· That's fine. 12· · · · · · · · ·(The deposition concluded at 11:17 a.m.) 13· · · · · · · · · · · · ·(Signature not requested) 14· · · · · · · · · · · ______________________________ 15· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·JONATHAN AMMON 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 11:17:16 11:17:28 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 79 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com ·1· ·STATE OF ARIZONA· ·) ·2· ·COUNTY OF MARICOPA ) ·3· · · · · · ·BE IT KNOWN that the foregoing proceedings ·4· ·were taken before me; that the witness before testifying ·5· ·was duly sworn by me to testify to the whole truth; that ·6· ·the foregoing pages are a full, true, and accurate record ·7· ·of the proceedings all done to the best of my skill and ·8· ·ability; that the proceedings were taken down by me in ·9· ·shorthand and thereafter reduced to print under my 10· ·direction. 11· · · · · · ·I CERTIFY that I am in no way related to 12· ·any of the parties hereto; nor am I in any way 13· ·interested in the outcome hereof. 14· · · · ·[ ] Review and signature was requested. 15· · · · ·[ ] Review and signature was waived. 16· · · · ·[X] Review and signature was not requested. 17· · · · · · ·I CERTIFY that I have complied with the 18· ·ethical obligations set forth in ACJA 7-206(F)(3) and 19· ·ACJA 7-206(J)(1)(g)(1) and (2).· Dated at Phoenix, 20· ·Arizona, this 23rd day of September, 2022. 21 22 23· · · · · · · ______________________________________ 24· · · · · · · · · · · · · CINDY MAHONEY · · · · · · · · · · · · · Certified Reporter 25· · · · · · · · · · · ·Arizona CR No. 50680 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 80 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com ·1· · · · · · ·I CERTIFY that Coash & Coash, Inc., has ·2· ·complied with the ethical obligations set forth in ACJA ·3· ·7-206(J)(1)(g)(1) through (6). ·4 ·5· · · · · ·__________________________________________ ·6· · · · · · · · · · · ·COASH & COASH, INC. ·7· · · · · · · · · · Registered Reporting Firm ·8· · · · · · · · · · · Arizona RRF No. R1036 ·9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 81 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com Exhibits Ammon Exhibit 1 2:13 11:12 24:6 Ammon Exhibit 2 2:14 12:2 13:22 27:20 Ammon Exhibit 3 2:16 11:24 15:15 16:5 19:15,18 20:8 36:11 60:5 Ammon Exhibit 4 2:18 23:21,24 Ammon Exhibit 5 2:19 29:15,20,25 30:4 42:17 59:6 Ammon Exhibit 6 2:21 58:2,5 73:21 $ $25 8:3 1 1 4:1 11:12 24:6 10 30:10 37:23 101 42:2 11:17 79:12 16 20:25 17613 6:23 1999 24:23 72:19,23 2 2 4:1 12:2 13:22 27:20 20 37:23 44:22 2004 7:6 2007 7:14 2011 7:15 2015 8:5 2016 8:25 2017 10:12,13 2018 8:25 9:5,10 10:11 15:21,25 19:12 60:6 2021 51:18 2022 32:1 59:6 61:18 24 30:9,10 31:10 37:21 3 3 11:24 15:15 16:5 19:15, 18 20:8 24:14 31:25 36:11 59:6 60:5,25 61:18 30 15:20,25 42:17 47:21 60:5 71:10 32 44:21 69:1 4 4 23:21,24 4456 51:2 44th 25:8 75:8 78:21 79:3 45 6:19 71:5,10 5 5 29:15,20,25 30:4 42:17 59:6 50 54:2 5225 11:9 56th 6:23 6 6 58:2,5 73:21 68th 25:8 7 75 77:13,15,16 78:7 7th 42:1 59:17 8 8 47:21 51:17 85254 7:1 A a.m. 79:12 ability 75:7 Absolutely 18:8 39:21 accepted 10:22 accurate 16:5 acquire 8:17 ACSD 24:23 active 53:13 activity 45:23 actual 17:22 37:10 72:14 Adam 8:11 additional 27:14 34:4 44:4 49:17,18 60:3,9 63:21 64:20,22,23 65:14 address 21:11 41:10 62:7 addressed 58:6 62:13 addressing 43:13 60:20 adjacent 52:11,15 66:22 adjustment 9:19,22,23 10:10 11:17 12:5 13:15 15:5 16:2,7 18:24 19:9 20:6 23:12 24:2,8 26:1 27:21 28:9 29:14 36:12 37:4 44:3 48:10,12 49:5 50:11 51:8 55:7,9 56:3,9, 11,25 57:5,6,21,24 58:21 60:1 65:2,3 68:14,22 69:8, 14 70:2,8,13,14,22 71:2, 18,20 73:11 74:25 Adjustment's 68:4 Adjustments 13:5 administrative 58:21 administrator 9:18,23 11:20 15:5 58:21 60:14 administrator's 19:5 adopted 24:23 72:23 advance 14:16 27:22 advanced 7:8 adverse 54:10 advise 19:20 advised 68:18 69:10 affected 47:6,19 affirm 58:20 aftermath 60:25 agree 24:24 26:6 43:21 64:2 72:5 73:4 ahead 75:10 allowable 77:20 allowance 77:16 allowed 17:10 40:1 44:3 55:25 alongside 11:20 ambient 25:4 66:5 67:1, 11 73:25 74:16 77:15,21 ambiguous 22:3 70:4 Ammon 4:4,11,12 11:17 14:8 17:8 23:25 29:18 30:12 35:6 47:22 58:5 59:21 65:25 79:15 amount 23:16 25:4,7 29:4 30:21 77:20 analogous 59:15 63:7 64:14 65:6,16 analysis 23:17 73:18,20 analyzing 75:11 angle 13:12 answering 19:22 answers 5:24 anticipate 13:10 anticipated 14:8 15:9 apologize 17:24 56:25 appeal 15:3 appealing 15:4 appeared 9:22 appears 9:2 21:15 appellant 13:4 15:12 19:4 30:20 42:20 62:22 appellant's 21:24 applicant 14:22 15:3 50:18 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Index: $25..applicant Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com applicant's 39:2 applicant/appellant 65:1 applicants 14:21 43:13 application 4:23 11:14 15:13 22:11 23:8 24:6,9 33:3 34:15 38:8 51:8 52:25 53:13 57:23 64:15 65:17 73:12 74:8 applied 19:3 apply 18:24 appointed 10:22,23 approaches 59:24 approve 48:13 approved 24:20 25:25 26:12 32:20 72:19 Arcadia 4:18,20 15:12 20:20 21:1,2 25:22 26:23 30:16,22 31:5 33:9 37:16 39:14,22 40:20 42:12,25 62:16 63:4,12 64:3,7 72:5, 20,23 73:5,9 architect 9:7 69:5 architectural 8:1 9:13 architecture 7:11 area 6:25 20:25 21:1,2,5,7 24:16 25:3,23 26:3,16,23 38:18,19 42:14 44:18 59:12 67:4,10 72:10 73:18 77:14,17 areas 66:22 arguments 43:1 arises 4:22 Arizona 8:4 12:5 24:22 arose 51:23 arriving 35:16 assess 66:1 association 4:19 63:13 association's 31:6 assume 5:10 assumed 54:9 assumption 44:5,8 45:7 46:18,19 attendance 45:19 attended 7:14 attendees 23:15 attorney 6:12,13 46:8 attorney-client 19:21 audible 5:24 audio 70:25 August 10:12 15:20,25 60:5 authentic 15:24 Avenue 42:1 59:17 aware 25:6 67:20 B BA 7:5 back 12:23 18:18,19 28:20 29:19 35:4,24 36:10 37:21 43:10 46:17,19 49:7 57:7,8 61:23 64:10 background 6:20 7:2,4 backlit 74:4,15 bar 69:23 based 15:8 18:11 21:19 22:14 34:3 36:13 39:1 43:9,23 48:14 51:14 53:6 63:12 64:20,22 67:8,11 69:4 basically 43:6 47:23 basis 38:23 bear 45:13 73:17 beginning 10:11 begins 25:15 30:9 betterment 56:1 big 28:24 binder 13:19 bird's 66:13 board 9:19,23 10:10 11:7, 16 12:4,12 13:5,10,15 14:20 15:10,18 16:1,7,14 17:4 18:24 19:9 20:5 23:12 27:16,20 28:6 29:14 30:12 33:19 34:1 36:11 37:4,12 39:11 41:4 42:10, 12 43:11,17,22 44:1,3,13, 15,22 45:14 46:21 47:14 48:1 49:5 50:10,16,23,24 51:7 52:25 53:12 54:1 55:7,9 56:3,8 58:16 60:1, 25 61:7,12,18 63:8 64:14, 21 65:2,6 66:1 68:4,13,21 69:8,14 70:1,7,9,13,14,22 71:2,17,19 72:20 74:24 75:17 Bootz 4:23 15:4,11 19:3 21:15 23:1 24:9 30:16,20, 23 31:12,22 32:5,8,10,20 33:1,11,19 35:17 36:7,18 38:25 39:7,25 40:5 41:3 42:20 43:2,6 44:14 47:2, 19 48:24 49:13,16,19 50:4 58:9 59:9 62:7,22 63:3,14, 21 64:5,25 66:7 69:17 76:13 78:4 borne 44:8 Botox 63:15 bottom 14:2 break 5:13,14 38:4 41:7 58:25 breaking 77:21 briefly 69:16 bring 31:13 75:15 bringing 36:20 39:19 45:14,23 46:12 50:9 74:25 brought 45:8 50:17 56:5 building 7:21 54:13 buildings 8:3,18 built 69:6 bullet 18:10 burden 65:1 business 8:16 9:12 12:13 54:13,16 C call 60:10 called 14:3 22:6 45:14 Camelback 4:18 11:9 20:17,20 21:3 22:11,20 24:22 25:8 34:6 38:8 42:19 58:10 59:18 64:16 72:23 74:4,11 78:16,23 79:1,2,3 candidly 34:16 capture 17:20 carried 16:25 cars 77:14 78:12 case 15:11 18:13,25 30:20,21,22 45:11 48:4 51:12,16 54:3,4 58:9 70:16 73:16 75:14 cases 53:17 70:7,8,15 71:19 73:15 cast 44:19 Catholic 31:16 37:24 41:25 42:13 43:7 47:3 48:21 59:8,16 62:23 63:7 76:15 caught 62:16 caution 60:7 central 20:25 chairman 48:5 challenging 19:4 change 54:19 77:7,9 character 25:22 26:3,16, 23 42:8 72:18 73:6,9 character-driven 24:20 check 38:18 44:19 75:7 Christ 11:10 22:12 42:20 58:10 59:18 64:16 church 11:9 22:11,12 23:11,13,15 31:14,16,18 32:14,17 33:2,14 35:7,10, 12 37:11,24 38:3,9 39:1,3 42:1,14,19 48:21 58:10 59:8,16,18 63:7,14,20,21 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Index: applicant's..church Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 64:16 65:6,15 74:4,12 76:15,23,24 77:14 churches 24:20 25:25 citizens 43:14 city 11:21 12:5,9 13:14 14:8 15:18,24 20:4 23:19, 20 26:9,11,13 31:3,7 37:3 42:22 46:2,8 49:1,11 50:3 55:8,22 56:2 59:22 68:25 69:3 72:15,16,20 76:1 clarifications 55:16 clarified 49:5 clarify 46:14 59:4,24 72:4 clarity 56:4 clear 5:6 28:20 49:4 click 35:10,16 clicking 69:23,25 clicks 35:19 client 15:22 clients 21:7 close 9:4 59:1 79:2 closed 43:5 54:21 code 7:1 codes 23:18,19 cofounder 8:7,10 Cole 44:22,25 Collaborative 8:8 colleagues 21:2 column 17:9 comfortable 35:1 comments 41:13 44:25 48:6 commercial 9:15 21:5 committee 72:21 commonly 76:12 communicate 49:25 communicated 30:7 39:11 53:3 communicating 53:4 60:14 64:21 communication 17:19, 21 64:22 communications 17:9, 13 18:6 19:21 61:1 community 11:7 43:13 56:1 commute 21:3 companies 29:9 company 4:24 7:21 15:4 40:22 42:20 comparable 23:11,14 compare 22:9,24 compared 74:15 comparison 28:13 31:18 32:15 34:11 38:3 compatible 24:21 compelled 34:25 complete 5:19 completed 32:16 completely 44:23 complex 52:14,16 comply 67:13 computer 34:10 concept 18:1 26:15 conclude 37:20 concluded 38:5 39:2,5 79:12 conclusion 22:18 34:3, 17 conclusions 22:14 56:1 concrete 10:1 condition 77:21 conditions 25:4 66:5 67:9,11 73:25 74:1,17 77:15 condo 52:14,16 confirm 56:19 57:12 confused 27:11,12 confuses 6:4 congestion 77:6 congregants 23:15 connection 11:16 12:25 20:3,5 52:25 55:23 56:2 60:19 considered 25:24 consist 12:16 66:10 consistent 26:15 72:17 constitutes 29:9 construction 7:12,20,22 8:4,19,23 contained 39:6 44:14 54:13 contemplated 23:8 59:17 context 42:8 43:12 44:15 61:8 70:16 continuance 62:6 64:11 continuances 62:12 contribute 24:16 67:3 conversation 27:18 conversations 60:8,13, 16 coordination 8:1 copy 79:7 correct 6:14 7:9,13 8:20 14:17 15:14 16:17,20 17:7 20:13 23:2,6 26:16 29:1,6 30:24 36:14,16 37:18 38:9 41:20 43:2,7 45:15,17,20 51:12 54:7,11 58:11,23 59:10,14,20 60:1,23 61:5, 16,21 62:24 64:8 71:5 72:11 73:12,18,23 74:5 75:12 76:4 78:14,20,24 correctly 9:3 26:4 31:19 48:17 cost 8:4 council 72:20 Councilmember 10:24 Councilwoman 10:24 counsel 4:15 11:21 12:16 18:16 19:19 20:4 46:1 60:8 61:1 73:14 74:21 75:24 76:21 couple 72:3 courses 19:7 court 5:20 46:15 79:6,9 courtesy 5:18 coverage 10:9 COVID 60:11 created 33:11 creating 33:25 credibility 43:22 46:21 credible 43:25 66:16 criteria 18:19,24 19:2 curiosity 36:2 customers 52:10 D Daniel 79:6 Danny 46:5 date 15:20 51:17 dated 15:25 day 9:9 21:1 day-to-day 38:23 daylight 54:17,21 days 14:16 27:22 28:1 dealing 16:16 decide 56:21 57:14,22,23 decided 67:9 70:15 deciding 70:16 decision 14:19 15:5 19:5 24:3 32:16 34:1,14,24 35:1,2 36:6 47:6 52:19 56:10,12,17,19,21 57:13, 15,20,22,24 58:16,20 61:8,13 63:8 64:13 65:2 73:10,16 75:17 decision-maker 50:21 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Index: churches..decision-maker Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com decision-makers 17:5 decision-making 47:4, 19 decisions 14:25 18:11 36:11 53:25 70:1 decreased 66:14 definition 28:11 29:8 33:17 degrees 7:8 delay 62:6 deliberation 42:15 denial 24:12 denied 24:9 deny 56:19 57:12 denying 66:2 73:11 Depending 23:13 deposed 4:12 deposition 4:22 6:8 23:24 30:5 70:19 76:7 79:12 describe 9:12 description 7:22 design 26:2,9,12 72:20 Designing 9:14 detail 36:6,7 38:21 64:6 detail-oriented 36:2,5 details 7:3 60:15 deterioration 67:4 determination 26:14 35:21 determine 52:2 64:12 determined 32:25 41:23 determining 28:6 detrimental 48:16 Devco 8:7 develop 8:17 developed 27:7 Development 8:7 Dewulf 4:9 12:1 20:1 23:23 25:10 29:17 32:24 33:8,23 34:23 36:17 37:1, 8 39:17 40:15 41:1 43:20 44:12 45:18 46:16 47:9,17 50:13 51:6 52:23 53:10,20 54:24 55:3,5,12 57:7,17 58:4,25 59:3 60:18 61:22 62:14 63:10 64:24 65:20 69:16 70:3,18 72:2 74:20 75:5,21 76:5,20 77:2,22 79:4 dialogue 43:6 differently 61:25 difficult 5:20 47:14 digital 11:8 22:7,10,21,25 23:5 25:6 28:16 29:5 31:16 32:17 35:7,12 37:10,25 38:7 53:8 74:8, 15 78:22,25 dimensions 22:22 38:16, 19 direction 30:6 64:19 disadvantage 63:5 disagree 24:24,25 26:6,7 57:21 disagreed 45:7 discern 38:11 discovered 54:8 discuss 70:8,15 discussed 12:9 discussing 68:10 70:7 73:15 discussion 47:23 55:4 66:4 67:17,23 discussions 21:6 dispensary 51:2,9,23 52:10,15,17 53:1 54:4 75:8 display 22:7,10,25 23:5 26:2 35:13 74:8 displays 24:19 distance 66:14,15 distances 66:12 distinction 33:14 distinguish 28:11 District 24:22 72:23 document 11:24 15:15, 16,20,24 16:10 23:21 24:5 29:15 58:2 documentation 13:20 50:6 documents 4:1 11:13 13:7 downgrading 24:17 draw 76:23 78:11 drawing 33:14 34:11 58:19 drive 53:16,25 drive-by 34:12 driven 21:12 42:3 49:12 78:15,16 drives 27:16 driving 20:24 74:11 drove 53:18,21 druthers 64:10 due 51:13 60:11 Duke 4:23 15:4,11 19:3 21:15 23:1 24:9 30:16,20, 23 31:12,23 32:5,8,10,20 33:1,11,19 35:17 36:19 38:25 39:7,25 40:5 41:3 42:20 43:2,7 44:15 47:2, 19 48:24 49:13,16,19 50:4 58:9 59:9 62:7,22 63:4,14, 21 64:5 66:7 69:17 76:13 78:4 Duke's 36:7 65:1 duly 4:5 dust 66:24 73:22 duties 16:15 55:23 56:4 69:14 E E-G-G-E-B-R-E-C-H-T 8:12 E-TRAN 79:9 earlier 29:21 46:20 78:16 Earth 27:16 52:2,18 53:5, 17 54:4 68:10,14,19 74:22 75:7 East 11:9 51:2 educate 13:14 34:14 educated 16:6 educating 19:8 education 11:17 12:8,25 20:3 effect 45:6 efficient 4:17 efforts 32:20 Eggebrecht 8:12 electrical 8:2 electronic 24:19 26:1 79:9 Elementary 21:16 50:5,6 embodied 16:4 19:15 24:6 EMD 25:25 emit 66:24 emitted 25:4 66:8 enforced 16:25 engage 18:6 engaged 16:15 43:4,5 50:9 engineer 7:23 8:21 ensued 55:4 59:2 entail 7:25 entertain 48:7 entire 78:23 entities 9:17 entity 8:5 9:7 23:11 environment 42:14 59:12 69:6 episodes 63:17 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Index: decision-makers..episodes Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com error 36:24 44:5,6,7,23 45:3 estimate 38:21 evaluate 26:22 evaluated 64:14 events 60:24 everybody's 48:9 evidence 13:24 14:3,11, 12,14,20 15:10 18:10,12 27:5,22,25 28:4 36:13,20, 21 39:13,19,23 40:2,20,23 42:22 43:1 45:8,15,24 46:12,23 47:1,3 50:10,17 56:5 59:24 60:21 62:17 64:4,23 66:7,10,16,18 74:25 75:11,15,16 76:8,9, 13,15,16 EXAMINATION 4:8 65:22 72:1 examined 4:6 examples 13:21 33:10 exceeding 66:5 67:1 exceeds 25:4 Excuse 22:17 57:1 68:8 exercise 35:24 exhibit 11:12,24 12:2 13:22 15:15 16:5 19:15,18 20:8 23:21,24 24:6 27:20 29:15,20,25 30:4 36:11 42:17 56:12 58:2,5 59:6 60:5 73:21 exhibits 4:1 79:10 existed 23:4 74:3 experience 49:1,2 50:17 explained 13:9 explanation 13:3 explanations 49:24 explore 22:4 exposed 21:5 extemporaneously 40:22 extend 5:18 extent 42:8 77:5 extra 26:25 27:3,9,13,15, 17 28:2,3 32:2 34:25 67:24 68:7 75:24 76:7 extra-record 40:2,19,23 45:8,24 50:10,17 76:15 eye 66:13 F face-to-face 53:9 fact 24:12 34:19 40:6 45:14 63:6 73:5,8 factors 65:25 factual 28:5 fail 12:23 failed 65:12 fair 5:10,16 16:2 35:2 39:14 42:15 43:14,17 47:12,14 48:2 59:13 62:5 64:3 75:9 78:10 fairness 62:15 63:25 74:24 fallen 33:1 familiar 12:5 15:16 20:16, 19 21:9 40:7 51:1 57:2 65:25 72:25 familiarity 20:23 64:7 familiarize 30:6 farther 18:9 favor 52:6 61:15 favored 61:14 favoring 32:19 February 31:25 59:6 60:25 61:18 feel 35:1 38:24 75:1 feet 10:2 25:23 fellow 70:14 felt 26:12 33:24 34:18,25 35:20 36:5 52:9 54:3 65:13 filling 77:20 78:7 finally 70:18 find 66:16,18 fine 56:15 70:12 79:11 fire 8:2 fit 26:23 fits 26:22 five-minute 58:25 flatfooted 62:16 flattered 11:6 folks 18:7 31:2 58:9 78:7 follow 23:19 55:16 72:3 follow-up 45:12 61:4 footage 10:8 23:16 foreign 18:2 form 13:8,13,15 15:16 32:21 33:4,21 34:21 36:4, 15,22 37:5 39:15 40:12,25 43:18 44:10 45:16 47:7 50:12 51:4 52:21 53:15 54:22 55:11 61:20 62:9 63:9 64:17 65:18 74:19 75:3,20 76:3,18,25 77:10 formal 16:15 18:4,6 20:11 21:17 formally 41:9 forward 26:11 found 35:4 foundation 25:9 47:7,15 founded 9:2,5 founder 9:8 four-year 10:14 fourth 16:10 frame 16:1 Frank 72:12 frankly 34:18 frequently 18:2 68:14 friends 21:1,2 front 38:21 53:2 fully 17:23 33:1 function 28:24 73:17 future 10:19 G gained 43:16 gap 65:13 gas 66:25 73:22 gate 51:23,24 52:2,10 53:22 54:5,8,17,21 gathered 41:2 gathering 44:4 gave 42:20 57:8 63:13 generally 5:12 18:23 24:19 generated 32:1 gentleman 8:11 30:13 gentleman's 40:4 Gibson 40:6 41:19 43:6 Gibson's 39:10 41:13 Gilbane 7:19,20,21 8:22 give 10:5 55:24 giving 40:21 42:12 75:18 glare 28:15 66:4,8,12,13, 25 67:10 73:23 74:16 glow 29:4 goal 5:4 Gomes 11:20 12:15 18:16 19:19 20:5 41:6 45:19 good 79:5 Google 27:16 52:2,18 53:4,17 54:4 68:10,11,14, 15,19 74:21,22 75:7 govern 12:12 graduation 7:19 grant 28:6 35:21 52:19 58:17 granted 54:20 58:1 granting 24:15 25:5 56:20,23 57:13,16 58:7 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Index: error..granting Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com 66:1 gray 26:2 great 79:8 grew 20:25 ground 4:16 ground-up 9:15 group 8:13 16:25 grown 49:1 guess 53:18 58:19 61:4 guidance 55:24 60:9,10 guide 58:15,20 H hair 63:15 halfway 14:25 handling 43:12 happen 6:3 50:8 77:24 hard 47:10 hardship 51:13,14,15 heading 18:9,19 hear 71:19 heard 27:3,7,8 48:15 62:17 70:9 hearing 14:17 15:3,6 16:19 17:14 18:12 21:17 23:1 24:2,6,9 27:4,23 28:1,2,9 29:14,18 30:2,8 31:22,25 32:6 36:14,21 37:14 39:8 42:5,6,7,21 44:13,16 45:19 46:2 48:10,12 49:22 50:10,18 51:1,17,23 52:1 53:13,14 56:9,11,25 57:5,6,19,21, 24 59:5,7 61:2,17,19,24 63:3 65:3 71:15 73:11 75:22 76:10,17 hearings 14:25 26:1 43:13 50:20 68:15,16 70:13 74:25 heat 66:25 73:23 height 10:1 28:13 33:15 39:11 helpful 35:25 37:10 42:15 helps 69:13 high 22:2 25:23 28:10,11, 23 29:3 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43:9,23 44:4 48:25 50:3 52:5,24 53:6, 12,14 67:15 76:14 informing 33:1 Inglese 6:13 19:20 25:9 32:21 33:4,21 34:21 36:15,22 37:5 39:15 40:12,25 43:18 44:10 45:16 46:5,10,14 47:7,15 50:12 51:4 52:21 53:15 54:22 55:11 60:7 61:20 62:9 63:9 64:17 65:18,23 70:5,6 71:22 74:19 75:3, 20 76:3,18,25 77:10 79:5, 8,11 instance 15:4 19:3 50:14 53:11 intend 27:22 intensity 66:12 interested 65:5 interfering 52:11 interrupting 57:1 intersection 21:12 introduced 63:3 64:23 introducing 36:19 40:19 introduction 39:12 64:20 76:13 77:24 involved 9:25 18:7 involving 42:19 issue 22:1 41:15 51:22 62:7 71:14 issues 16:16,17 42:9 45:22 59:25 60:20 items 58:6 IV 13:23 14:10 J Jammon 9:2,4,21 Jammon's 9:12 January 51:17 job 8:22 36:1 joined 8:19 Jonathan 4:4,11 79:15 judges 17:5 judgment 16:24 32:25 36:23 K keeping 25:22 26:13 kind 11:17 18:3 22:3 42:18 kinds 6:1 14:9 42:9 43:12 60:21 72:16 73:17 knew 19:2 34:19 41:19 knowing 53:3 knowledge 35:19 46:5 49:3 59:24 68:3 69:2,4,7, 11,13 71:18 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Index: gray..knowledge Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com Kramer 63:16 L L-I 46:15 land 8:17 lapse 36:23 larger 21:23 22:15,19 25:24 74:8 lasted 8:14 law 37:7 laws 23:18 67:14 lawyers 18:1 46:1 learn 54:16 learned 54:20 left 8:5 legal 11:20,21,22 12:16 13:24 14:11 17:2 18:4,15 20:4 27:4 60:21 legislative 16:11,16 lengthy 57:8 letter 37:6 level 43:16 74:16 levels 66:25 67:1,10 Li 11:21 46:6,8,10,15 60:14 life 34:10 light 25:4,7 66:11 67:10 lighting 67:9 limit 9:21 limited 14:20 lines 25:14 37:23 live 21:2 lived 21:1 68:24 78:18 living 69:5 Lloyd 72:12 locate 37:9 located 42:1 52:3 53:22 locating 35:17 location 24:22 26:1 34:6 55:19 59:12 77:25 78:12 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members 15:18 17:4 37:12 41:4 42:13 43:11,17 44:1 46:22 47:14 48:1 50:24 51:7 52:25 53:12 58:16 61:7,12 68:21 70:14 memoranda 13:24 14:12 memory 51:21 mentioned 41:13 message 24:19 26:1,2 met 56:22 57:16 71:4 mic 40:1 microphone 31:8 microphones 31:2 million 8:3 mindful 72:16 mine 21:1 minimal 8:12 minute 43:10 minutes 6:11,16,19 20:11 29:22 31:7 32:1 37:19 53:2 67:16 70:21,23 71:5, 10 misunderstood 68:8 moment 10:5 14:7 18:22 20:14 27:19 41:13 58:13 money 78:11 monument 23:4,7 28:13, 25 29:11 morning 71:5 motion 48:6,7,11,14 61:5, 8,12,15 62:4 Mountain 4:18 move 48:1 moved 20:24 26:11 moving 62:4 multiple 8:1 muted 31:2,7 N necessarily 77:21 negative 24:15 25:2 neighborhood 4:19 20:20 42:9 71:15 72:6,14, 18 73:5,9 neighborhoods 69:2 neighboring 73:18 neighbors 54:10,12 news 54:25 nice 31:18 32:14 38:2 noise 66:25 73:22 non-lawyers 18:2 normal 47:25 north 6:23 20:20,25 52:16 noted 39:10 notes 59:1 71:13 notice 53:21 75:10,18 notwithstanding 34:19 number 21:6,12 23:15 29:20 77:13 numbered 16:9 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Index: Kramer..numbered Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com numbers 29:12 numeral 13:23 14:10,25 O oath 5:1 40:13,16 object 32:21 33:4,21 34:21 36:15,22 37:5 39:15 40:12,25 43:18 44:10 45:16 47:7 50:12 51:4 52:21 53:15 54:22 55:11 61:20 62:9 63:9 64:17 65:18 70:3 74:19 75:3,20 76:3,18,25 77:10 objection 45:22 objections 46:11 obligation 75:2 observations 44:14 observed 45:9 obtained 15:22 occurred 20:12 26:9 30:2 47:23 51:2 60:24 odor 66:24 73:22 off-the-record 55:4 office 54:14,16 officer 15:6 24:9 28:9 48:10 56:25 57:5,6 58:22 65:3 73:11 officer's 24:2 48:12 56:9, 12 57:19,22,24 official 16:15 on-the-record 63:1 one-and-only 78:22 ongoing 50:18 open 10:3 54:17 opinion 48:9 opportunity 11:6 30:22, 24 31:3 39:20,23,25 40:20,22 41:8 42:13 63:5 64:12 75:18 opposed 34:10 60:10 62:4 opposing 15:12 opposition 13:4 14:21 30:21 33:9 62:4 opposition's 33:6 oral 13:6 order 26:10 35:16 75:9 organizations 43:14 orientation 11:22 original 46:17 originally 73:11 overturn 48:12 57:19,23 65:2 P pages 16:9 18:18,19 paragraph 24:14 25:16, 17 Pardon 57:4 park 78:12 parked 77:14 parking 77:13,15,16,20 78:7 part 10:12 12:8 21:24 24:11 26:21 37:21 38:5 41:9 47:3 73:10 74:16 75:16,25 76:22 parte 17:9,13,16,20 18:3 participants 17:14 53:14 75:19 parties 13:25 14:15 27:7, 21 30:16 32:3 39:19 41:9 43:4 49:22 52:12 62:6 64:21 74:24 75:1,2,9,16 76:9,17 parts 24:20 38:4 party 27:15 33:20 passion 69:6 Paul 11:21 46:6,8 60:14 PDF 13:8 pedestrian 66:21 73:22 77:7 people 5:21 13:5,7 40:16 41:7 57:2 76:23 77:19 78:11 percent 10:3,4,9 54:2 performance 55:23 56:3 59:25 period 66:15 periodically 56:6 permit 11:8,13 18:19,25 25:5 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40:5 presenting 13:5 43:23 65:5 preserved 73:6 prevented 52:10 previous 70:8 73:15 previously 70:16 primary 21:9 23:11 prior 42:21 private 60:8 privileged 19:21 procedural 46:11 59:25 procedure 12:4 27:20 36:12 37:4 60:21 68:5 procedures 37:3 proceeding 14:1,15 16:20 17:2,6,22 20:12 27:4 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Index: numbers..proceeding Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com proceedings 11:22 15:9 18:3,4,6,7 27:10 37:20 42:19 45:15 47:25 48:2 50:24 64:25 process 13:10 30:19 37:4 42:15 47:4,19 50:9 processes 11:23 produce 25:7 profile 21:24 22:2,3,19 23:3 25:22,24 28:10,12, 23,24 29:3 33:17 67:18 prohibited 17:13 project 26:10 projects 9:16 pronouncing 9:3 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27:4 44:25 63:2 73:15 relation 55:17 relationship 22:21 relative 19:11 relevant 67:14 relief 28:7 52:19 rely 69:7,11 71:18 remember 6:2 9:25 13:15,18 35:14,15 51:11, 22,24 52:14 63:18 67:23 70:18 Remind 68:24 remote 60:11,12,15 remotely 60:20 removal 63:15 rendering 34:10 repeat 45:4 rephrase 6:5 32:9 39:3 reporter 5:20 46:15 57:10 79:6,9 reporter's 29:13,20 70:24 represent 4:18 63:14 representation 16:5 representative 31:6 request 15:23 requested 28:7 52:20 79:13 requesting 51:13 required 54:17 56:9 57:19 requirements 56:22 57:15,25 58:7,14,15 research 34:25 63:6 64:12 65:14 reside 6:22 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Index: proceedings..reside Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 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59:7,16 62:8,23 63:7 76:15 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Index: residential..St Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com staff 14:8 standard 29:8 67:20 standardized 67:21 standpoint 62:15 started 20:24 starting 9:10 state 4:10 62:11 stated 32:13 statement 20:17 24:24, 25 26:6 49:6,7 53:5 statements 13:25 14:12 20:15 63:2 states 46:13 stating 64:21 step 43:10 stop 5:16 street 21:11 25:8 42:14 75:8 78:21 79:3 street-front 23:16 strict 37:6 structural 8:2 structure 28:25 studies 66:11 67:11 Studios 9:2,4,21 study 72:15 77:23 78:4 subject 5:5 17:21 33:2 38:8 39:8 46:24 53:25 64:15 65:16 72:8,14 74:7 submit 66:7 submittal 72:19 submitted 71:2 substance 61:19 substantive 46:11 summarizing 42:18 Sundt 8:19 Supplementally 34:16 supplementing 33:18 support 52:6 55:8,22 59:22 67:16 supporting 56:3 supports 46:19 supposed 66:1 surprise 11:3 surrounding 24:16 25:3 38:18,19 42:14 59:12 74:1 sworn 4:5 systems 8:3 T takes 53:17 talk 22:2 23:3 40:1,22 61:1,7 73:14,21 talked 14:7 28:9 29:21 40:6 41:6,20 58:13 76:6,7 talking 20:11 23:4 28:4, 23 49:14,21 50:2 77:6 talks 13:23 14:7,10 taller 22:16 23:7 taught 18:15 telling 40:10 ten 14:16 20:24 25:23 27:22 28:1 31:7 78:19 tenant 9:15 term 10:14 22:3 26:25 27:3,7,8,9 57:3 67:17,21, 24 68:3,7 76:13 terms 12:24 15:18 27:4, 17 44:3 53:8 56:4 59:15 74:24 testified 4:6 78:15 testimony 18:10,12 29:21 36:13,21 41:17 45:10 48:5 58:13 59:21 60:21 76:8 texting 50:20,24 Thelda 10:24,25 things 6:1 12:17 14:9 24:11 31:15 42:9 47:13 59:23,24 60:22 72:16 73:17,21 thinking 51:12,15 62:15 Thomas 51:3 thought 34:13 37:10 throw 77:12 time 5:13,21 10:19,25 16:1 19:10,24 27:2 28:19 30:7,21 43:12 46:7 56:14 59:5 70:10 71:7 75:10 timeframe 69:4 times 6:4 9:22 21:13 35:15 78:16 title 7:23 today 4:22 16:19 27:5,10 37:2 40:9 41:22 46:22 54:25 55:6 61:23 66:4 67:17,23,25 68:1,11 69:17 71:7 today's 6:7 70:19 told 16:6 tools 68:22 top 16:11 total 11:3 22:18 traffic 42:14 52:11 66:21 73:22 76:22 77:6,8,19,23 78:4 train 13:14 trained 16:6 60:16 training 11:17,19 12:8, 15,25 15:18 19:8,11,12,14 20:3 60:3,4,10,19 traits 73:9 transcribed 59:6 transcript 29:13,21 37:20 48:4 70:24 79:7 transcription 30:2 transition 48:14 transitioning 60:11,15 transpired 61:24 Tricia 11:20 12:15 Trinity 7:6 Tristahn 31:6 true 14:12 20:17 35:22 74:12,17 trust 43:16 46:23 truth 5:1 40:10,14,17 type 5:25 13:3 78:22 types 13:19 typically 53:24 U uh-huh 6:1 9:11 12:3 25:18 47:24 51:19 62:19 understand 5:2,6 11:10 12:19 14:19 16:22 17:16, 23 18:5,13,23 22:23 26:25 27:9,17 36:18 76:12 understanding 7:5 13:6 15:8 33:16 34:8 36:3 understandings 4:16 understood 5:6,10,22,25 14:11,14 16:14 17:12 24:8,11 26:21 30:1 36:11 73:8 76:8,22 unfair 64:8 unique 72:6,17 73:5,9,16 78:22 University 7:9,14,16,17 updates 60:4 updating 19:8 uphold 56:9,11 upholding 56:16 utilized 37:11 V Vague 70:3 valuable 35:20 values 24:17 67:5 variance 10:1,7 51:13,15 52:6,19 54:20 57:25 variances 56:21,23 57:14,16 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Index: staff..variances Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com vehicular 66:21 73:21 77:7,19 verbal 5:25 verbally 53:6,11 vernacular 73:25 versus 16:11 28:10,23 29:10 35:12 59:17 vibration 66:25 73:22 video 13:8 view 27:25 28:24 29:3 30:23 33:6 54:19 56:8 65:9 66:13 75:8 viewed 49:15 violated 37:2 virtual 7:22 virtually 55:19 vis-a-vis 38:19 visual 13:7 36:4 38:25 39:5 visually 59:8 74:10 voluntary 10:21 vote 44:19 52:6 60:25 61:4,11 voted 61:14 W walked 13:19 walking 74:12 wall 10:1 wanted 32:16 34:8 59:4 76:23 Washington 7:8,14,17 ways 55:8 59:22 website 31:12,23 32:5,8, 10 35:6,8,17 36:8,19 38:6, 12 39:1,7 41:3 44:15 47:2, 19 49:13,16 50:4 59:9 62:7 63:4 69:17,20,24,25 76:14 week 71:12 well-worded 70:11 west 78:25 Western 7:16 white 26:2 wide 25:23 Williams 10:24,25 word 28:4 69:22 70:23 75:24 wordy 49:24 work 6:2 7:19 8:12 9:17 11:23 15:9 43:11,23 48:11,19 49:8,10,11,12, 14,15,20,22 50:2 60:11,15 working 60:20 world 36:4 Wright 72:12 written 12:17 14:12 20:11 42:22 wrong 29:6,7 Y year 8:14 years 21:4 55:7 69:1 Z ZA-324-20 51:20 ZAHO 56:24 57:4 ZAHO's 56:16,21 57:14 ZIP 6:25 zoning 9:18,22 11:20 15:5 19:4 23:19 24:2,8 25:25 28:9 48:9,12 56:11, 25 57:5,21,24 58:21 60:13 65:3 67:14 73:10 Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association vs City of Phoenix Jonathan Ammon September 9, 2022 CV2022-004359 Index: vehicular..zoning Coash & Coash, Inc. staff@coashandcoash.com 602-258-1440 www.coashandcoash.com Board of Adjustment Training August 30, 2018 Planning & Development Department Agenda • Types of Regulations • Legislative vs. Quasi-Judicial • Common Terms • Types of Cases • Review Criteria • General Process • Q & A Zoning Ordinance • Types of Regulations – Land Use • Uses are permitted in each district – Use Permit – Development Standards • Numerical Standard (Setback, Lot Coverage) – Variances Legislative vs. Quasi-Judicial • Legislative – Lawmaking • Rezoning • Text Amendments • Adopting Plans • Quasi-Judicial – Similar to a Judge • Enforce/carry out/interpret existing rules • Apply legal standards to the facts and circumstances of a specific case Legislative vs. Quasi-Judicial • Legislative – Ex Parte Communication • Allowed – Evidence and Testimony • Decisions based on everything that is know in addition to what is presented at the hearing • Quasi-Judicial – Ex Parte Communication • Not Allowed – Evidence and Testimony • Decisions are based only on the testimony and evidence presented at the hearing Common Terms • Applicant – Submitted application • Appellant – Appealed ZAHO decision • Uphold – Agree with ZAHO decision • Overturn – Disagree with ZAHO decision • Findings – Rationale for decision • ZAHO – Zoning Adjustment Hearing Officer Types of Cases • Variances – Relief on development standards • Setbacks, Lot Coverage, Spacing, etc. • Use Permits – Uses generally compatible – Case by case analysis • Secondhand Sales, Outdoor Dining, etc. • Interpretations – Ambiguous, vague, unclear – Application in particular situations Use Permit Criteria • The use will not: – cause a significant increase in vehicular or pedestrian traffic in adjacent residential area – emit odor, dust, gas, noise, vibration, smoke, heat or glare at levels exceeding ambient levels – contribute in a measureable way to the deterioration of the area or the lowering of property values – comply with all relevant laws Variance Criteria • Special Circumstance or Property Hardship • Cannot be self imposed • Necessary to enjoy reasonable and substantial property rights • Cannot have a harmful impact on adjoining properties or the area in general General Process - Meetings • Provide clear explanation of request or process in terms that the average citizen can understand • Direct staff to explain further • Be nice and fair to both sides (i.e. time to speak) • Perception is everything Be cautious of appearing too comfortable with applicants/appellants or other hearing attendees • If ZAHO decision is overturned, findings should be stated after the motion and second “There is/is not special circumstance or hardship” “The hardship is/is not self-imposed” It is/is not necessary to enjoy reasonable and substantial property rights” “It will/will not have a detrimental impact” Meeting Outline • Chair Calls the Case • Zoning Administrator Presents ZAHO decision • Swear in all speakers for specific case • Appellant – 10 Minutes • Opposing Side – 10 Minutes • Appellant Rebuttal – 5 Minutes • Board Discussion/Questions • Render Decision De Novo Hearing • New Hearing – New evidence can be presented • i.e., Revised Site Plan – Request can be modified to an extent • i.e., Scope of Project • i.e., Variance to reduce setback to 10-feet. Minimum 15-feet required. – Modified to reduce setback to 12-feet. – Could not modify request to reduce setback to 9- feet. Enforceable Stipulations • Relevant to request • Legal • Clearly Understandable • Proportionate State what you want and staff can recommend specific language Questions